A leak I am working on, looking for opinions

[flair1239]

Sample hand

Say you are the button with a hand like A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, but it could be any hand that you would play from the button normaly, I guess even JTo. But a little better than marginal hand, that is routinely subject to pitfalls like domination or does not have a lot of durability. But for this example let's stick to A7... but in your responses feel free to ramble about different hands.

Anyway say you have a MP2 limp from a typical LPP or in stats terms 35/4/.8 or something like that.

PF: Villian limps, Hero raises

Flop: Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Villian bets, hero... ?

Comments: There is no reason to get cute here is there? maybe he might be betting a draw, but there is really no reason to find out right?

Now let's throw some other variables in:

1. What if the flop was a rainbow?
2. What if we had a BDFD?
3. What if villian was a TAG type instead (in all of the above scenarios).
4. Also let say it is checked to us we bet, turn is a blank and is checked, how often are you guys firing again (obviously a little more with an Ax hand, but just looking for some general thoughts).

[W. Deranged]

Flair,

I totally understand your difficulty with this situation, as I've had to encounter it a bunch recently.

My play recently has been to simply fold the flop and move on. I think that is the way to go.

Basically, any further money invested in the pot is invested in a the desperate hope of catching an A and the thought that A high might be good.

Against a real Lag I might raise here if I thought it was likely I was good (ie. if I knew villain would raise all better A-high hands/pairs pre-flop and would check-raise the flop with top pair...) But that would certainly be the exception (maybe 10%) and would often be done for metagame reasons in a live game as much as for value.

If you need more convincing there is always the fact that the pot is only 5 SB and you'd only be getting 2-1 on a call down.

Back-door flush draw makes no difference here, in my opinion. You are not considering simply calling the flop here, and the pot is not big enough to bring those 1.5 outs into play.

If it's checked to me on the flop, I'm certainly firing. On the turn I'll probably fire again unless villain is a total calling station who will call the turn 95% of the time.

[toss]

Against this type of player its best to fold.

I still don't like it if we have a BDFD.

TAG will bet out with a flushdraw sometimes, but I think you'll still be drawing to 3 outs or less most of the time.

I'll often not fire again if we see a blank turn.

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]


My play recently has been to simply fold the flop and move on. I think that is the way to go.



[/ QUOTE ]

After doing this a couple times at the same table. Do you think (if you decide to remain on the table) that it would represent a good time to start shifting gears. Either in the form of passing on a couple isolation possbilities, or simply overlimping. Or throwing in a random flop raise?

I just look at it and don't see it as worth continuing. But at the same time, I know when I see someone doing that (folding immediately to a flop bet after raising, more than one time) I start to get creative with them.

[W. Deranged]

I understand the concern, but I don't think it's that huge a problem because:

1. Most of your opponents aren't creative.

2. You'll almost always be raising with much stronger hands which you will continue to play on aggressively.

2a. You'll be playing the flop aggressively and hopefully opponents will be afraid to bet into you in fear of losing bets.

If anything, I think folding the flop every once in awhile to one bet is good in that it might make you less scary to some of the timid players and encourage a little more action.

[callmedonnie]

I like a fold here. This flop hurts a lot. If the flop is a rainbow I'd say the same, as well as the BDFD. If he's a TAG why is he open limping in that position? Small to medium pocket pair, in which case we may have six outs, maybe three, and maybe dead.

As for firing again, that depends on the player. I usually learn towards it as I like to take the pot down and this works a considerable amount of the time. If its an observant and tricky player who may checkraise me, I try to lean towards caution and seeing a free card. But I hate when they lead on river after that.

[car ramrod]

very good points, especially about getting action later on, when you are raising pf with a monster.

[captain_swing]

I think the turn bet (when villain checks twice) depends entirely on villain's looseness and passiveness. Against someone with those stats I would be tempted to bet. Paradoxically, I'm more inclined to bet against LAPs where A-high might be good. Against decent players I will more often check because I am likely to be behind.

This specific flop though a bet on the turn might be worth it against somewhat better opponents. It is moderately coordinated so hands like KT and JT might call the flop and then fold the turn.

[TomBrooks]

Only one overcard. No straight or flush chances. Easy fold.

If flop was rainbow AND there was a BDFD I'd peel one off. I'd rather have two overcards to do that though. Doing it with only one overcard might not be so good. I'll usually do it, but I'm not even sure that's wise.

PS, PREFLOP: I don't particularly like raising A7s here. I'll usually raise down as low as A8s, which I realize is not that much different, but A8s as the lowest I usually go.

Does anyone else particularly like or dislike this raise?

And how would the number of limpers affect how low of an X in AXs you like to raise with?

[w_alloy]

Does anyone ever worry about how massively exploitable floding this flop to a donk bet every tmie you dont get hit is? I mean if he leads every time against your range here, hes going to make a profit if he has 2 uno cards in his hand. I understand this really isnt relevant because hes not going to donk bet any 2, especially a passive player, but it still bugs me.

This is of course assuming you play it this way every time... but do you? I've started to donk bet lots of flops oop against tags (when im not the pfr) and i think its making me money, although as somoene mentioned with 2 tags this situation hardly ever comes up. But the rarity also means people never catch on.

Also, how laggy does he have to be in order for this to not be a fold? Are you raising or calling if he autobets or semi-autobets? I'm having trouble in these spots too...

[Vee Quiva]

This seems to be a case of fancy play syndrome. I fold this flop every time in your example. Why get cute in a pot worth 5 small bets?

Now if you are checked to, it might be worth a stab at the pot.

You limped, you missed, move on.

[jjacky]

[ QUOTE ]
This seems to be a case of fancy play syndrome. I fold this flop every time in your example. Why get cute in a pot worth 5 small bets?

Now if you are checked to, it might be worth a stab at the pot.

You limped, you missed, move on.

[/ QUOTE ]

he raised.

[jjacky]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone ever worry about how massively exploitable floding this flop to a donk bet every tmie you dont get hit is? I mean if he leads every time against your range here, hes going to make a profit if he has 2 uno cards in his hand. I understand this really isnt relevant because hes not going to donk bet any 2, especially a passive player, but it still bugs me.

This is of course assuming you play it this way every time... but do you? I've started to donk bet lots of flops oop against tags (when im not the pfr) and i think its making me money, although as somoene mentioned with 2 tags this situation hardly ever comes up. But the rarity also means people never catch on.

Also, how laggy does he have to be in order for this to not be a fold? Are you raising or calling if he autobets or semi-autobets? I'm having trouble in these spots too...

[/ QUOTE ]

to give everybody a possibility for a play that shows an automatic profit bothers me too.
i handle it this way: i do fold usually in situations like the OP described. if someone bets into me a couple of times, i test him by raising the flop and following through with a turn bet. but i am not sure wheather that's a good idea. most of the time, the passive guy who bet into me 3 or 4 times just got lucky. but i can't help me: i think even most fish will pick up on it eventually, if i fold every single time in those situations - and they occur a lot when i run unlucky.

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone ever worry about how massively exploitable floding this flop to a donk bet every tmie you dont get hit is? I mean if he leads every time against your range here, hes going to make a profit if he has 2 uno cards in his hand. I understand this really isnt relevant because hes not going to donk bet any 2, especially a passive player, but it still bugs me.

This is of course assuming you play it this way every time... but do you? I've started to donk bet lots of flops oop against tags (when im not the pfr) and i think its making me money, although as somoene mentioned with 2 tags this situation hardly ever comes up. But the rarity also means people never catch on.

Also, how laggy does he have to be in order for this to not be a fold? Are you raising or calling if he autobets or semi-autobets? I'm having trouble in these spots too...

[/ QUOTE ]

to give everybody a possibility for a play that shows an automatic profit bothers me too.
i handle it this way: i do fold usually in situations like the OP described. if someone bets into me a couple of times, i test him by raising the flop and following through with a turn bet. but i am not sure wheather that's a good idea. most of the time, the passive guy who bet into me 3 or 4 times just got lucky. but i can't help me: i think even most fish will pick up on it eventually, if i fold every single time in those situations - and they occur a lot when i run unlucky.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is kind of the krux of the situation. And why I even thought to post it. I had been overplaying these situations.

Now that I am focusing more on stuff like this, I feel very vulnerable after a couple times.

The deal is is that the situation itself is easy to get away from, but the reprucssions are murky.

That said I like W. Deranged's reply earlier in the thread. In my mind he hits the nail on the head.

[jjacky]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone ever worry about how massively exploitable floding this flop to a donk bet every tmie you dont get hit is? I mean if he leads every time against your range here, hes going to make a profit if he has 2 uno cards in his hand. I understand this really isnt relevant because hes not going to donk bet any 2, especially a passive player, but it still bugs me.

This is of course assuming you play it this way every time... but do you? I've started to donk bet lots of flops oop against tags (when im not the pfr) and i think its making me money, although as somoene mentioned with 2 tags this situation hardly ever comes up. But the rarity also means people never catch on.

Also, how laggy does he have to be in order for this to not be a fold? Are you raising or calling if he autobets or semi-autobets? I'm having trouble in these spots too...

[/ QUOTE ]

to give everybody a possibility for a play that shows an automatic profit bothers me too.
i handle it this way: i do fold usually in situations like the OP described. if someone bets into me a couple of times, i test him by raising the flop and following through with a turn bet. but i am not sure wheather that's a good idea. most of the time, the passive guy who bet into me 3 or 4 times just got lucky. but i can't help me: i think even most fish will pick up on it eventually, if i fold every single time in those situations - and they occur a lot when i run unlucky.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is kind of the krux of the situation. And why I even thought to post it. I had been overplaying these situations.

Now that I am focusing more on stuff like this, I feel very vulnerable after a couple times.

The deal is is that the situation itself is easy to get away from, but the reprucssions are murky.

That said I like W. Deranged's reply earlier in the thread. In my mind he hits the nail on the head.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, deranged's post was very good. the problem is, that most hands have the feature to get pretty weak if they dont get a piece of the flop and that is the case very often. say we had a much stronger starting hand like AJs. of course, our hand would be a little stronger on the flop, but the decission is still pretty similar.

[DrBob]

I don't claim great expertise, but I had the experience where worrying about essentially this issue left me in a 4 MONTH break-even streak, due almost entirely to excessive avoidance of folds in these situations for fear of being exploited as weak-tight. When I finally broke this leak my game instantly improved. There seem to be several reasons for this, even versus those opps who are observant enough to pick up on my betting patterns:

1) When I do make aggressive plays I'm much more effective. In these HU or 3-handed situations the observant opps are folding to my semibluffs more.

2) It's not just the flop pot-odds that are at issue. Continuing with these hands just asks for trouble when you pick up a little bit on the turn, and are now faced with a difficult decision. Unless you have a REALLY good sense of where you are in the hand that one extra small bet has suddenly turned into a hemorrage.

[jjacky]

thank you for the post. i considered to play "weak" in more of these situations recently. after reading this, i tend even more to do so.

[crunchy1]

It kind of seems, and I could be wrong, that many posters here are associating a flop fold as a "weak" play. Of course - we've all been conditioned to know that "weak" play is bad play. I think this can lead to difficult decisions in many situations similiar to the one the OP presented. We know that the fold is probably the correct play. However, it seems to be such a "weak" play - and "weak" is bad!

I think that conditioning ourselves to think in terms of the correct/incorrect play versus the "strong"/"weak" play will go a long way in solving the frustrations we experience on hands like this.

[jjacky]

[ QUOTE ]
It kind of seems, and I could be wrong, that many posters here are associating a flop fold as a "weak" play. Of course - we've all been conditioned to know that "weak" play is bad play. I think this can lead to difficult decisions in many situations similiar to the one the OP presented. We know that the fold is probably the correct play. However, it seems to be such a "weak" play - and "weak" is bad!

I think that conditioning ourselves to think in terms of the correct/incorrect play versus the "strong"/"weak" play will go a long way in solving the frustrations we experience on hands like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

i had the same impression: that many people try to avoid "weak" plays rather than bad or incorrect plays.

*edit*
i do not exclusively refer to this thread.

[goodguy_1]

If he's LP as you mention lay your hand down most of the time with no legitimate draws.Occasionally raising with backdoor draws/or just overcards-he may be betting 3rd pair... does this player bet 3rd pair heads-up? You should have some idea whether he does or does'nt. Does the LP bet his draws..All these questions are based on your prior observation of his play..that's why it's so important to try and pay attention when you are out of a hand. Yes we all multi-tablers but you should try to be aware of the tendenices of all players on each table you are at..not easy 6-8tabling. another good reason to play fewer tables or at least add additional new tables slowly as you start your playing day. If you have great PT/PV Stats you can get away with being a bit less observant obviously.

If this guy is a LAG at all and you repeatedly find yourself in this situation you must assert yourself and raise his donkbets often with as little as ace high..take the intiative away from him. Dont let LAG's outplay you especially when you have position . Since this player you say is passive(LP) must passive players are not tricky and trying to take you off hands...I would fold to the LPP and shuck and jive with the LAG's in general. If the player is a TAG you are in a quandry chances are if he is a TAG that plays well he may make the same moves on you as a LAG but instead maybe he will checkraise the flop instead of just betting out-it's a much stronger play whether he has a hand or not. It's hard to decipher when a LPP player makes a donkbet on a flop whether it is legitmate-u need to get a read on this player according to how he's played this hand with other players. If he's LPP there is a good chance he is often in this situation against other players. You should be watching this to get a bead on his play and see if he more often than not makes a this bet with legitimate hands or not.

My default play in this spot heads-up against most players on a ragedy innocuous flop is if I have 2 overcards or any pair better than 3rd pair I will raise the flop if a player bets into me. This play really depends on the texture of the flop and your read on your opponents. You dont wont to lose too many bets thu in this spot and that can happen easily against tricky LAG's or TAG's. Check behind on the turn often when you have no pair or no draw or you feel the value of a high card showdown is insufficient. This will induce river bluffs when he misses his draw. LAGS will call in this spot heads-up with any pair so if you do make a pair bet it for value. Dont waste bets trying to mindlessly push a hand that doesnt warrant it-the LAG will call you with any pair and even ace high. Against LP players I would be just a bit less aggressive value betting.

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
It kind of seems, and I could be wrong, that many posters here are associating a flop fold as a "weak" play. Of course - we've all been conditioned to know that "weak" play is bad play. I think this can lead to difficult decisions in many situations similiar to the one the OP presented. We know that the fold is probably the correct play. However, it seems to be such a "weak" play - and "weak" is bad!

I think that conditioning ourselves to think in terms of the correct/incorrect play versus the "strong"/"weak" play will go a long way in solving the frustrations we experience on hands like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Coming through the micros aggression was really pounded into our heads. I was playing Micros in the period leading up to and a couple months after Millers book. That was back when he was posting a lot to hype his book.

But yes this is another good point. It feels wrong. Truthfully I sometimes feel a little embarassed doing it. However it as you said, folding is the correct play.