Goofy line at 5-10NL

[Mens Rea]

Incredibly loose B&M game. I have black aces in the cutoff and $2500 behind. 3 limpers to me, I make it $50, 3 people call.

Flop is 8 10 Q rainbow.

2 checks and an incredibly bad player bets $30. I just saw this guy call $60 preflop with KJo, then call an all in for around $1000 on the flop with an open ended draw and hit. He has me covered, but he is gonna piss it away, and I want it before he gives it to someone else.

I raise to $200, all fold back to him, he raises to $400. At this point, I am putting him on 2 pair, and I am seriously considering folding, but I can't lay down the aces to a chump (which is somewhat chumpish myself, I suppose) and call.

Turn 8. Interesting card. I now beat Q 10, which is what I put him on originally. He checks. I bet $500. He thinks for a minute and calls.

River 4. No flush possible. He leads all-in. Call or muck?

[redtrain]

How much is the all in?

Why would he bet $30 into $200 pot? Usually when a fish does that, I put them on a draw. Could he have KJ again?

I don't think he goes in the tank on the turn call if he has you beat, so I would call unless he had well more than $1000 left.

[Mens Rea]

He has me covered.

[redtrain]

so it would cost you 1500 to win 3500? I'll stick with call.

[aggie]

There’s 4050 in the pot and you’ve got to call 1550 so you’re getting 2.6 to 1. I think you’ve got to call, but you definitely should have checked behind on the turn

[Falker11]

A lot of times weak players take a long time to call when they have what they think is a great hand in an attempt to fool you. Have you noticed any of this with this guy?

I think its a fold. This line is pretty consistent with a fish who has something like X8, made his hand on the turn and slowplayed it (and tried to fool you by thinking for a minute), then tries to get you to call him on the river.

You are getting about 7:3 on your river call so you also need to consider how often he would be bluffing with a missed draw in this spot. You said villian was willing to play for all his chips with a draw earlier, but he called all in I think you said, not push, so I'm not sure how often he would be bluffing, Maybe you know better?

-Falker

[Mens Rea]

[ QUOTE ]
There’s 4050 in the pot and you’ve got to call 1550 so you’re getting 2.6 to 1. I think you’ve got to call, but you definitely should have checked behind on the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should I check behind on the turn? My thinking behind the bet was that if he pushed, I could muck and not be put in the situation I was on the river. I figured if he called, I could check behind on the river and show it down. I also didn't want to check and induce him to bet somewhere around half my stack, which would force me to call. It didn't work out as I planned, but I thought the bet was the right play.

[aggie]

[ QUOTE ]
Why should I check behind on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

When he raises to 400 on the flop, he’s got a hand. You don’t want to play a huge pot with AA because it seems very likely at this point he might have a set. Checking behind on the turn does several things. First and foremost it keeps the pot reasonable and allows you to utilize your position. If he bets the river it’s probably not going to be for his whole stack and you can call because you’ve shown weakness. If he checks you can value bet and he might call you with a very weak holding, again because you’ve shown weakness.

When you bet the turn you opened a can of worms. Even if he checkraises allin on the turn it’s not an easy laydown based on your description of him.

[captZEEbo1]

sometimes idiots checks their full house hands b/c now they want a straight draw to catch up or something (who knows exactly what they're thinking). He could easily have like TT or QQ or T8 here. Hard spot. I have trouble putting him on QT after the river, unless he can't really read the board.

[Mens Rea]

FYI - he does seem bad enough that he would not realize that AA beats his Q 10 here, though I don't have that solid a read.

[FatalError]

sounds like you were beat and you're trying to rationalize your play any way you can, i generally don't see AA winning here all that often on party poker, i just don't see a blatant river bluff/ QT thinking its good happening often enough

[Mens Rea]

This was live B&M, not Party Poker.

I'm not rationalizing anything, I mucked and showed the aces in the hopes that he would show too (usually the case in this game). He showed J9o for the flopped straight. Could he have played that any worse?

[Stormwolf]

if he is crazy enough to do that on the river with QT he probably leads on the turn with that hand(he would only check if he is afraid of trips or that he got counterfeited so he woundlt go all-in on the river with QT), so he probably has you beat, I didnt did that math but looks like you still has some money behind and could fold, this line doesnt look like a bluff because of the turn check i think

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
This was live B&M, not Party Poker.

I'm not rationalizing anything, I mucked and showed the aces in the hopes that he would show too (usually the case in this game). He showed J9o for the flopped straight. Could he have played that any worse?

[/ QUOTE ]hi.. i was just reading trough respnses to check and see if someone had told you yet how obvious it is that he has J9. look at his flop play, you made a HUGE mistake not folding on the flop... you are drawing dead the vast majority of the time.

[ShortySaurus]

you are beat most of the time here.......but its still a tough fold against a chump with aces up.....

[Mens Rea]

Flawless - 2 questions

When you talk about folding the flop, I am assuming you mean after his reraise to $400. Surely you wouldn't fold here to a clown without raising for info.

Second, I have to disagree with you about this being a "HUGE" mistake not folding the flop. This guy sucked - if I let him run over me here, I'd never be able to get involved with him short of flopping a set or some other monster. I'd love to be able to wait around to do this, as it would surely be sucessful, but I was feeling overeager to get his money, because he was aiming to dump it on someone really quick. Also, because he was bad, I had a feeling that he might get cute and let me see two more cards if I wanted them.

One further point - this dude was awful, as I said (see KJ hand). There is absolutely NO WAY that you can tell me that it is obvious that he has J9 here. If he was moderately decent, I might agree with you, but he was bad beyond the realm of predictablity.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
When you talk about folding the flop, I am assuming you mean after his reraise to $400. Surely you wouldn't fold here to a clown without raising for info.

[/ QUOTE ]of course not... id prob be a little suspicious of this idiot, however, id feel obligated to raise with thios ridiculous multiway action.

[ QUOTE ]
Second, I have to disagree with you about this being a "HUGE" mistake not folding the flop. This guy sucked - if I let him run over me here, I'd never be able to get involved with him short of flopping a set or some other monster. I'd love to be able to wait around to do this, as it would surely be sucessful, but I was feeling overeager to get his money, because he was aiming to dump it on someone really quick. Also, because he was bad, I had a feeling that he might get cute and let me see two more cards if I wanted them.

[/ QUOTE ]
i didnt say wait for a set... i didnt even say wait for a pair... but the best hand would be nice.
[ QUOTE ]

One further point - this dude was awful, as I said (see KJ hand). There is absolutely NO WAY that you can tell me that it is obvious that he has J9 here. If he was moderately decent, I might agree with you, but he was bad beyond the realm of predictablity.

[/ QUOTE ]i have played with plenty of ppl who are just as bad as this guy, prob some even dumber... i have seen my friend overbet the pot allin in a 5/5 game with the board reading 553-3 and get called... the caller rolled 94s (no flush draw). it is because this guy is so terrible that i can tell you with 95%+ certainty that he has the nut straight when he makes it 400 to go.

[gol4pro]

Depends what kind of bad he is.

Raise 90% of the time preflop bad? Or call down to the river with a pair of 2's bad?

If's he's the WAAAAYYYY overly aggressive type of stupid, then I call.

If he's the passive type, I fold before his chips get to the pot.

[savman]

you said urself u knew u were beat on the flop. donkbets usually indicate a draw/weak hand, or rock crusher; your raise for informstion was correct, but when he donk3bets you this is 95% rock crusher, unless he is maniacal. having said that, i am guilty of not laying down big hands to idiots (leak); at least u didnt call an all in.

As an aside, you called 200 looking for five outs anyway ( 3 of which u arent even sure are clean)...board pairing 8's or A, that should have been a sign.

[RollaJ]

[ QUOTE ]
This was live B&M, not Party Poker.

I'm not rationalizing anything, I mucked and showed the aces in the hopes that he would show too (usually the case in this game). He showed J9o for the flopped straight. Could he have played that any worse?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you think he played it so badly?

1)He bet small on the flop, hoping to get you to raise.... accomplished

2)He checks the turn, since you raised the flop and just called a 3 bet he puts you on AQ or KK or AA. Those are hands that would think bottom card pairing helped their hand. He checked and got you to bet..... mission accomplished. (He could have reraised the turn, but knew youd fold the above hands. So he decides to take a little risk and make the always fishy Check-call the turn, lead at the river play.... which very often gets called)

IMHO the "chump" played this well

[Mens Rea]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This was live B&M, not Party Poker.

I'm not rationalizing anything, I mucked and showed the aces in the hopes that he would show too (usually the case in this game). He showed J9o for the flopped straight. Could he have played that any worse?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you think he played it so badly?

1)He bet small on the flop, hoping to get you to raise.... accomplished

2)He checks the turn, since you raised the flop and just called a 3 bet he puts you on AQ or KK or AA. Those are hands that would think bottom card pairing helped their hand. He checked and got you to bet..... mission accomplished. (He could have reraised the turn, but knew youd fold the above hands. So he decides to take a little risk and make the always fishy Check-call the turn, lead at the river play.... which very often gets called)

IMHO the "chump" played this well

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you the "chump?"

[Mens Rea]

Seriously though - I know it seems obvious after I've posted results and my thought process, but the reality is that he flopped the nuts against someone with pocket aces and made $75 bucks in a really loose game. Put it this way - if things were reversed, I'd be unhappy with that return.

[RollaJ]

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously though - I know it seems obvious after I've posted results and my thought process, but the reality is that he flopped the nuts against someone with pocket aces and made $75 bucks in a really loose game. Put it this way - if things were reversed, I'd be unhappy with that return.

[/ QUOTE ]

He made $75? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

No, I was not the Chump /images/graemlins/tongue.gif . I'd Have C/R you again on the Turn most likely

[swarm]

"Incredibly loose B&M game. I have black aces in the cutoff and $2500 behind. 3 limpers to me, I make it $50, 3 people call."

To me this is your problem, you know it's a loose game and you have 3 limpers and you only raise it up to 50. None of which made a mistake calling your preflop raise because the certainly had implied odds.

This is fine if you are not regularly going to get 3 callers and have to play AA in a 4 way pot. You knew they were loose yet didn't make it more to go. If you are comfortable with getting in a 4 way pot with AA you certainly have to be willing to let it go with too much action on the flop.

Way to likely someone has 8's, 10's, Q10, Q8, 108, or J9 all which have you in a big hole. This guy led out for 30 in a $200 pot and then re-raised you to $400... If he is bad as you say he is not capable of making this move without a hand.

I thought his play was extremely transparent yet you paid him off anyway on the turn.