Call down with AKs?

[housenuts]

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 caps</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

First off is this an easy 3-bet? I haven't liked doing it lately because I've found myself out of position on raggy flops alot lately.

Should I lead at the flop?

Do I call this down? If not, when do I fold?

[mantasm]

Yes this is an easy 3bet.

If you lead the flop you will be raised about 80% of the time. So no.

You have showdown value against very aggressive players but lots of times you can fold the turn. It depends on who the other guy is.

[toss]

3-bet PF is good since AKs is ahead on most hands an average Party 2/4 player will raise from UTG+1. Also knocks out BB.

I'd want to fold the turn. After UTG+1 caps PF and bets the flop and the turn AKs doesn't look that good anymore.

[keetz555]

Looks like your up against an overpair. I lead out on the flop to see where I'm at. If I get raised, I call for one more bet and check-fold if I don't improve on the turn.

[billyjex]

Unless I had a read on the player as being very aggressive, you can fold the turn. You're just about getting odds to chase a pair, but the times he has AA/KK make it not worth a call.

3-bet pre-flop is good.
and what about check/raise flop?
(lead tern if he just call and fold tern unimproved if he 3-bet flop)

an idea to lead flop isn't good, because he never fold and usualy raise you.

[keetz555]

[ QUOTE ]
an idea to lead flop isn't good, because he never fold and usualy raise you.

[/ QUOTE ]
If he has an overpair (my guess), he won't fold no matter the action. But by leading out I get some idea where I'm at. If he just calls, it could mean overcards - I'm betting the turn. If he raises, I'm thinking overpair - I'm calling and check-folding the turn unimproved.

I'm not saying that this how it should be done, it's just what I'd do. I have been wrong before. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[sy_or_bust]

[ QUOTE ]
But by leading out I get some idea where I'm at. If he just calls, it could mean overcards - I'm betting the turn. If he raises, I'm thinking overpair - I'm calling and check-folding the turn unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't work, nor is information a good reason for betting. All EP raising hands will be correct to raise you with position on the flop, so the flop jab does nothing. If anything, some players will slowplay and you'll be stuck betting the turn OOP. If you want to continue this way you should check/call the flop and bet/fold the turn, but I'm not a huge fan of this line. I prefer a turn check/fold against typical players.

[keetz555]

Ok. So what's your line here? Check-call the flop and check-fold the turn?

[toss]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok. So what's your line here? Check-call the flop and check-fold the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds good.

[ArturiusX]

Betting here isn't the best line because we're effectivly paying more money to find out the obvious. Overcards could raise here, AA could wait for the turn. Betting tells us nothing (as do any bets/raises for information, Sklanksy said in HEFAP how they're very silly and a waste of money).

Check-calling allows us to see a turn card as cheap as possible. If he has AQ we dont want to be aggressive and force a fold. If he has AK we'd love to fold him, but probably won't. AA/KK/QQ are likely, so we're paying 2.5BB to potential win 7.5BB. The added advantage is if we hit a hand we can check-raise and steal more bets when we're ahead. Getting about 3:1 check-calling is the best option. AK/AQ will probably check the river too, so we can fold to a river bet.

However we must pay more money if we bet the flop. Why pay more money? We'll never fold a better or identical hand and we'll only pay off more to a better hand.

Against a thinking player, check-raise would be interesting as AA would surely 3-bet and we can easily fold to it, but we might be able to push a player off QQ/AK, if the read permit, which almost always it doesn't.

Is my thinking offbase here? Im not as articulate as the other guys, I apologise for that. See why betting out is bad though?

[sy_or_bust]

I agree with that, although I wonder if this is really the right spot for check/call, check/call, check/fold? It's 6.5:1 on the turn, with anywhere between 0-6 outs and no implied odds. I think we need a read.

[toss]

I think the kicker for me is that villain raised from EP, capped, and we're in trouble if we're against AA,KK.

[W. Deranged]

I think that this is a very read dependent situation.

Against a certain breed of very agg-early players (particularly short-handed) I think your line can be fine because occasionally you'll get shown AQ or some lesser A.

At a 10-handed table, with no read posted I'm assuming this is against a standard/unknown type. From my experience, most small stakes players have pretty tight capping standards, and I think it is unlikely you are ahead here on the river even 10% of the time. Your equity might be boosted a little here by those times you'll chop with another aggressively-played AK (though villain may have just showed this down on the end). Regardless, taken in isolation I think that the river probably should be folded if somehow you get there (note you are only getting 8.5-1).

As for the rest of the hand, I agree with the concensus on how to play this overcard hand: simply. Check-call the flop and hope to turn and A or K (which, note, will not be winners some significant portion of the time). Check-fold the turn unimproved.

[Ryan11]

I like check-raising the flop, if 3-bet then check fold turn UI. If just called I lead the turn no matter what comes.

Good 3-bet definately the correct play.

[W. Deranged]

I really have to disagree with this line.

1. You are behind to any hand with a pair, and, as I mentioned before, S.S. players like to have pairs to cap.

2. Check-raising the flop puts you in the messy position of needing to lead the turn out of position without much of a hand.

3. Any overpair is not folding here.

4. The only possible upside to a check-raise here is getting another AK to fold, though many S.S. players will call down with AK anyway because they think it's the nuts.

5. Any claim that such a line is "informational" is misguided; villain capped pre-flop from early position at a full table. That should be plenty of information to make the correct decision.


Check-raising the flop here is the kind of fancy-play-syndrome, chip-spewing line that many players really need to get out of their systems.

[Ryan11]

If this is a typical good game of 2/4 I've seen players cap with a lot less than AK. Depends on the read of course. If he is a laggy player then I don't see this as spewage.

[sy_or_bust]

As a default, checkraising the flop and leading the turn is horrible.

First, I would have liked to know more about the villain.

Regardless, it's an easy three bet. You absolutely need to do it with that hand.

I would have led with a bet on the flop. My hand may presently be best, and I have about 7.5 outs (3A, 3K, 1.5 for runner-runner flush). The villain could easily have a non-paired hand such as A-K, A-Q, K-Q, and, though less likely depending upon his style (and this is where a read on him would be very helpful), some lesser hand. A raise on the flop by the villain to your bet would tell me he likely has either AA-JJ, or one of the high non-paired hands.

I'm likely to call down to the river, but probably fold on the river. Again, a read on him here is helpful.

[Bill C]

What would be your line if instead of capping PF, he called the 3-Bet?

bc

[W. Deranged]

I think this introduces a few too many variables to consider completely but:

1. I am certainly leading the flop.

2. I am probably not three-betting the flop if raised.

3. Depending on my read of my opponent (particularly if he's been known to raise draws or overcards) I am going to be donk-betting the turn following a flop raise some significant portion of the time, generally without much regard to the turn card. This seems the best turn line against standard opponents since I think a check-raise is too expensive without gaining much in the way of bluff equity (vis a vis a donk-bet) and a check-call isn't getting pure odds and gains no bluff equity. (At that point hero would have to call a turn raise, but I'm happier doing it here than in the capped-pre-flop example because it's more likely all my outs are clean). Since a check-call is pretty close to being EV0, though, I figure that a donk-bet maximizes the combination of bluff value and drawing value, and will be EV+.

4. Against a very passive opponent I'm checking the turn if raised on the flop and probably folding unimproved.

[callmedonnie]

[ QUOTE ]
If you lead the flop you will be raised about 80% of the time. So no.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you lead and are reraised, you can call one sb (1 big bet total) and check/fold turn with confidence you're behind. By calling all the way down you commit 2.5 Big bets.

Of course if turn gives you a flush draw or a pair, or you're getting the 7 to 1 on your six outs, you can check/call.

Also, reads help. What kind of player is pf capper?

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
If you lead and are reraised, you can call one sb (1 big bet total) and check/fold turn with confidence you're behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

This just isn't at all true. Many pre-flop raisers will raise the flop with u/i overs. Many 2+2 pre-flop raiser's will raise the flop with u/i overs. I don't think this is a
particularly good play.
There's a post in here somewhere by Nate that the flop tells you less than you think. I suspect he's right.

[meep_42]

I always 3-bet this pf. I play the flop and turn the same, I think i'm getting just enough on the turn to call, without a read. On the river, i'm willing to give him what is almost certainly a split at best. If he doesn't check behind any street I don't think i'm good here very much.

I don't see any place on this board to raise, there's simply nothing threatening to TT-QQ that will get them to fold. There's nothing that suggests AK will fold either (no broadways on board), a turn bet would almost have to call a raise (8.5:1), and a turn c/r-lead is an expensive bluff to make.

-d