Wynn 5/10 NL Deepstacks

[Xelent]

This game got a lot tougher during the world series, but still had its moments if you sat at the right time. There were two minimum buy-in players ($500) one of which didn't know what he was doing, and the other being a tight young kid who looked like he was playing a short stack well. Most other people had between $1000-2000. Villain in this hand has ~6K and I have him covered. We are the two big stacks. It's been a relatively TAG game since the two small stacks sat.

Villain opens UTG for $40.

In this type of game, I know villain well enough to assume he would go for a limp-raise with any big pocket pair and loves to lead out in EP with suited connecters. He will limp with any pocket pair (~75% sure of this) in current game conditions. He does not want to be hit with reverse implied odds and be playing AA out of position deep stacked against a large field.

Hero calls on the button with 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/club.gif as does the BB(~1200).

Three see a flop ($125) 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif

The BB leads out for $80 and Villain makes it $200 to go. Hero makes it $600. BB folds and Villain re-raises to $1800. He isn't the type to slowplay even on a flop like this if he the nut strait.

Villain respects my play and knows I could have a big hand. Whats your line and if your line means action on future rounds, how would you play those rounds?
*EDIT: Forgot to mention the game is 9 handed if you were curious.

[AZK]

I fold. I also probably call villain's first raise rather than re-raising. Do you raise your flush draws?

[thabadguy]

Bottom set, i think this is a fold given the action. One of the few times you can fold a set and be happy about it.

[SpaceAce]

So, you're sure he doesn'thave a big pair and you're 75% sure he doesn't have a set because he limps with pairs. He does raise small suited connectors in EP, though. That makes the range of hands that is beating you extremely small: 78s and, uh, 78s unless he also raises 23s in early position. I am guessing the villain would also push pretty hard here with 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, right?

You say the villain is not the type to slowplay but is he the type to overplay? Could he be pushing this hard with 45/56? What about 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif9/images/graemlins/heart.gif? I'm having a really hard time finding a way to get off this hand because of the fact that we're assigning such a low likelyhood to set-over-set. If you are ahead, I imagine there are a LOT of cards that can kill your handon the turn. How about calling looking to get your money in on a non-heart non-straight turn?

I'm not a big fan of your bottom set but you didn't really say whether the villain must have a straight to play this strongly. Will he pay off if the board pairs on the turn?

SpaceAce

[Xelent]

In Response to AZK:

I usually mix it up, but against him in this situation I would probably raise and try to get a free card for a flush vs a big stack in position. I was just worried because I wasn't the last threat to act if I just called. The BB would call and than many, many turn cards would be scary. Whoever took the lead (one of them would) would bet big on the turn probably no matter what unless pure bluff. The BB probably has two pair or sucker strait or top pair and open-ended. I could also get trapped if BB has nuts and Villain bets the turn for a lot, Hero calls, and than I get caught inbetween and lose a lot of money. I'm kinda going all over the place with my thoughts. Oh well.

[Xelent]

I can never be 100% sure against him, because he is tricky. Yes, it is possible he has absolutely nothing, and it is possible he has a strait, or he can be somewhere inbetween -John Madden. He will overplay hands every now and than so he can get paid off when he flops a hidden monster. He likes to set up overbets. Also possible for him to have 23s, but I didn't know the SB's action yet when I had to act on the flop. He would just lead into us for $80 unless he has something. The SB was that type of player. But he will also call with a relatively wide range of hands in that spot preflop because he can play the flop well.

The main problem for me was that I thought the SB was thinking UTG Villain had a big hand. Why would he lead out on that flop if he thinks UTG Villain has a big pocket pair?

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
Bottom set, i think this is a fold given the action. One of the few times you can fold a set and be happy about it.

[/ QUOTE ]i agree.
basically your hand is just not that big in this spot... this guy is totally opening himself up OOP. looking very big.
a rare spot where bottom set just isnt huge...

[Xelent]

If UTG Villain started the hand with $1000 how should I have played after he made it 200? If I raise to 500 and he pushes? Other logically lines? Remember that I'm still worried about BB.

What if I started the hand with $1000? or $1500-2000?

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
If UTG Villain started the hand with $1000 how should I have played after he made it 200? If I raise to 500 and he pushes? Other logically lines? Remember that I'm still worried about BB.

[/ QUOTE ]if neither had more than 1000 i would threebet allin.

[mikech]

i think this is a fairly easy fold. it's kind of like a reverse implied odds situation. if he flopped the straight, he's not necessarily gonna lose the rest of his considerable stack to you if the board pairs (you said he knows you have a big hand here, so he'll likely realize you filled up), but if your read is wrong and he did raise 66 or 55, then you're completely screwed. there's 1400 in the pot, 1200 more to you, 4200 behind to play for, you only have 7 outs if he has the nut, and you may not get paid off even if you hit. fold.

[AZK]

You keep talking about hte BB, but he folded, you are saying he would have called 200 but not 600 so that is one of the reasons you raised? With 1k stacks, it's easy, you put him all in on the flop because you assume a lot of turn cards will kill your action and he could have any number of hands and you have the BB to worry about, but the way you describe this guy and with 6k it isn't so easy...

why is a set out of his realm again?

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]

i think this is a fairly easy fold. it's kind of like a reverse implied odds situation. if he flopped the straight, he's not necessarily gonna lose the rest of his considerable stack to you if the board pairs (you said he knows you have a big hand here, so he'll likely realize you filled up), but if your read is wrong and he did raise 66 or 55, then you're completely screwed. there's 1400 in the pot, 1200 more to you, 4200 behind to play for, you only have 7 outs if he has the nut, and you may not get paid off even if you hit. fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel like this sums it up very well.

What would be ridiculous would be giving him credit for a bigger set/straight and bluffing him out of the pot when the turn is a heart...but that is probably a line for the movies or something...

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]


why is a set out of his realm again?

[/ QUOTE ]he said something about how he believes this guy would limp UTG w/AA-22, but these seems kind of difficult to confirm. i cant imagine you guys are deep and he wouldnt make it 40 w/66 at least sometimes...

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In this type of game, I know villain well enough to assume he would go for a limp-raise with any big pocket pair

[/ QUOTE ]


he said something about how he believes this guy would limp UTG w/AA-22, but these seems kind of difficult to confirm. i cant imagine you guys are deep and he wouldnt make it 40 w/66 at least sometimes...


[/ QUOTE ]



I think you are refering to the above quote, which makes sense for AA, but not for 22 - 88...

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
He will limp with any pocket pair in current game conditions.

[/ QUOTE ]

[flawless_victory]

BTW/ can you ban ppl?

[Xelent]

All of the above is valid and of course players in this game can mix it up and suprise anyone at any given time.

I was refferring to the BB because it effected my thought process as to why I made it $600 instead of cold calling the raise. I was saying how it would be difficult to play the turn if I flat called because of the BB.

And why should I be banned?

[Xelent]

I also guess I went to far in my original post. I kept going on with questions and mentioning things because after the action described in my first post, the clear answer was fold, but the reason I posted this was because of my flop decision after Villain makes it $200 and action is to me. I had all those things to consider. So I guess what I'm really asking is how should I have proceeded with the hand from the point where it was my action $200 to go and on. Was making it $600 than folding to a raise the right play? And what would of happened if I called?

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
And why should I be banned?

[/ QUOTE ]SRY.
the ban Q was completely unrelated to your thread...

[Ulysses]

Pretty easy fold, I think. I posted a hand a while back where I folded 77 to similar action on a 789 flop. Similar situation here.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I was saying how it would be difficult to play the turn if I flat called because of the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it wouldn't. He only had $1200 to start and you have a set.

[technologic]

this game was a shark fest during the world series. how long ago was this hand? i was in vegas playing 5/10 at the wynn for the past couple of nights.

[fsuplayer]

i think doing anything but folding here is -EV.

you are either behind a good amount to a straight. drawing almost dead to a higher set, or slightly ahead of something like 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.


not a good time to put more chips in IMO, especially this deep, with nearly no implied odds.

[aggie]

I knew it....You're a junkie!!!!

Good to see you're back EL D.....I guess posting in OOT gets mindnumbing after a while? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[lapoker17]

I don't like the reraise on the flop at all. It's a call.

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the reraise on the flop at all. It's a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's back! They always come back! Where the [censored] have you been?

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the reraise on the flop at all. It's a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's back! They always come back! Where the [censored] have you been?

[/ QUOTE ]

[Klepton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the reraise on the flop at all. It's a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's back! They always come back! Where the [censored] have you been?

[/ QUOTE ]

[lapoker17]

5 months on the East Coast and travelling a little, no poker at all. I didn't even look at 2+2 once - It was kind of liberating, but it's good to be back playing and posting. Glad you guys are all still around.

[Bet_to_Nguyen]

Given your re-raise, I think this fold is pretty easy with deep stacks at a TAG table.

[Xelent]

Well, I wish people would tell me how to proceed on the turn if I flat call the flop with the three of us seeing the turn. Anyway, thanks for the responses so far. Here are the results.

I folded, and later he told me he had 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I guess the point of the post was me having hindsight bias and realizing I lost a lot of money that I didn't need to. I was looking for a better line. That is why I should of stopped at $200 to go my action.

So...

Hero calls the $200 and let's say BB calls another $120. Three of us see the turn ($725). Do I get aggressive and raise on any non-threatening card? Do I try and keep it cheap and just check/call to the river? For all I know villain could still have the nuts strait or bigger set and BB could have 2 pair that could catch up or a strait.

[Xelent]

Hey tech,

That's basicly what I was saying also. I've been at the Wynn since it opened and it's amazing how good this game was before the series started. It turned to crap after. I played again a little last night and it is already softening up a little bit. I really hope the game goes back to what it was.

[technologic]

i may have been the youngish kid with the short stack...i played on friday and saturday night. i think i'll practice better game selection, but i played at the wynn for the poker rate on the rooms.

[srolle]

what time was this hand? i was in this game every night for 12+ hours during the series. who was the villain?

i thought it actually got a lot better over the ME week.

this is an easy fold (for folding a set on the flop that is...) though. i dont like the flop raise either. especially if you know the villian prolly doesnt have 55, 66 given his style.

i would like to know what the villain looked like, but i only played against one player that i would classify as a serial limp-raiser in that game. the flop play sounds like this guy. but if it was this guy it was probably a bad fold and a worse raise. if he bet out on the flop and you called he'd only fire again on the turn if he had you beat.

so?

whatd the villain look like?