$15+$1 vs. $25+$2 turbos on Stars

[durron597]

I feel like the $15+$1 turbos on Stars are very not soft. So I'd like to hear other's opinions on that fact. This leaves me with a few choices. My BR on Stars right now is about $300. I have no problem moving back down if I lose a good chunk of this BR.

Note: I only ask the question because I really think the play at $16 is abnormally hard (I keep hearing about how soft the higher limit games are in the $30-$50 range) so I'm wondering if it's just that level and I should move up. I also seem to recall in this vein a few months ago.

[morgan180]

i have noticed the same thing (very small sample size) but the 6.50s are easy and straight forward and the 16s are tough from my experience. i'm glad i'm not the only one that thinks this - i thought there was no way these could really be hard, just that i was not playing well. i don't even want to play the 16s any more - i just multi the 6.50s and hope to build a br up to the bigger games.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
i thought there was no way these could really be hard, just that i was not playing well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know... but I really truly feel like the play is much better. But I don't consider myself good enough to actually make that judgement for sure.

[J-Lo]

if you think the $16's are rough, i thought the $27's were very very hard. I made over $2,000 at the $16's over 500 tourneys at the $16's, but couldnt' beat the $27's after 500, (down 30 buyins) so i moved to party's $22's, which were very soft.

[Colonel Kataffy]

Come over to Party, you know you want to.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Come over to Party, you know you want to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking.

[UMTerp]

If you think the $16's and $27's are tough on Stars, you've got some leaks. I don't want to be too harsh, you need to re-examinate some things if you're breaking even, or even have <10% ROI. Is there a consistent way you're busting out? How long has this "bad stretch" been?

And you're fooling yourself if you think you're going to find softer play at the higher limits. You probably know that though.

do you happen to know a player named ELEVENTY?
(taking a random guess that it might be you.. ^^)
and
YES PS turbo 16 and 27 should be very tough to beat lately.
I know bunch of good players who have recently started mad-multi-tabling those games.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Come over to Party, you know you want to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're playing the Turbos on Stars, I can't really think of that much reason not to move to Party. The Turbos are an absurdly quick structure - the few times I've played them, we've barely finished an orbit before we're on level 3. The low rake is nice, but you really can't get many hands in at all before push/fold time. I realize that for some people this might be a nice thing, but part of the reason that I like playing at Stars is because I get more game before entering that stage.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
If you think the $16's and $27's are tough on Stars, you've got some leaks. I don't want to be too harsh, you need to re-examinate some things if you're breaking even, or even have <10% ROI.

[/ QUOTE ]

When was the last time you played these? I recall a post a month or two ago about how much harder they got all of a sudden (right around when Party added the 75/150 level).

[ QUOTE ]
Is there a consistent way you're busting out? How long has this "bad stretch" been?


[/ QUOTE ]

Not statistically significant. It's more of a gut feeling than anything else. Really the problem is that the players in these games don't let themselves get bullied and do a lot of well timed aggression on the bubble. A lot of my ROI in the $6.50s was playing the bubble correctly when my opponents wouldn't; the problem is there's even less time to wait for a hand than there is on Party.

[ QUOTE ]
And you're fooling yourself if you think you're going to find softer play at the higher limits. You probably know that though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not expecting to find softer play at much higher limits, like $50+ buyins. I'm saying that the $16s might possibly be just one rare exception. Though I have zero experience in the $27s, so that's why I made the OP.

I dunno. A lot of posters have told me that they think I have the theory down in most cases. Yet most of the time in the $16s I really don't think I have a skill edge. Down to 5 handed it seems there at least 3 people who know what they're doing every single time.

[UMTerp]

[ QUOTE ]
When was the last time you played these? I recall a post a month or two ago about how much harder they got all of a sudden (right around when Party added the 75/150 level).

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a huge sample size, but not tiny either - I played 400 $27's over a two-week stretch in late June, and was over 30% (longterm, I'm ~25%ish). I haven't played any in the past week or two. I rarely play the $16's, so I can't speak for them, but I always assumed they were easier. The $60's are tougher than the $27's, and the $114's are tougher than the $60's - that I know.

[Bluff Daddy]

Ive never played on stars but I find it seriously hard to believe there are that many good players at that level

[1Winston]

The stars $16 and $27's are both tough games. Personally I think the 27's are harder than the 16's, though my sample size at the 27's is much smaller.
I really like the structure on Star's turbo's compared to Party. With nearly twice as many chips, you can play around a little more in the early game (with position anyways).
I've not made a ton of money on the 16's, but I truly feel like this has been from an unreal run of bad luck. I'm waiting for that night where I just can't lose and double my ROI in a matter of a couple of dozen games.
I do however feel that playing these has drastically improved my game over the past month.

Oh, and durron, we were on the same table on Saturday or Sunday and I thought at the time that your name looked familiar. See you out there.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I rarely play the $16's, so I can't speak for them, but I always assumed they were easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I think there is a chance that the $16s are a somewhat unlikely exception, and the OP was meant to ask the board if they agreed with me.

The problem is I don't think very many people on this board play the $16s. If I posted some HHs would anyone look at them?

Now, don't get me wrong, there are plenty of donks at this level. But it's still rough on the ROI when 4/9 players at a table besides yourself have some idea of what they are doing, especially how to play the bubble correctly. If you're not the guy who busts a donk it's really hard to play against 3 smart villians with only 1000 chips on the bubble at Stars.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
With nearly twice as many chips, you can play around a little more in the early game (with position anyways).

[/ QUOTE ]

The first two levels typically last no more than 10 hands, so there really isn't more room for horsing around. You get fewer hands before you're at the high blind levels than at Party.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

The first two levels typically last no more than 10 hands, so there really isn't more room for horsing around. You get fewer hands before you're at the high blind levels than at Party.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right but there are more levels. You're not really shortstacked with your original stack at 50/100, and 75/150 is still manageable. It's 100/200 where you really have to make a move or die, which is level 6. In an 800 chip game it's level 4 (Party doesn't have a 10/20 level, only 10/15 right?)

Edit: also realize that level 7 is 100/200/a25, which makes the real real do or die level be 8 (200/400/a25).

[1Winston]

True, you do get fewer hands, but you have twice as many chips as on Party. Stars also has levels with antes which help slow things down. Seems like the levels would have to be twice as quick on Stars to be very different from Party... but maybe I'm missing something. To me, they are more comfortable.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

Right but there are more levels. You're not really shortstacked with your original stack at 50/100, and 75/150 is still manageable.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you're not short, but average stacks at those levels are not the kind that allow for excessive maneuvering, which was all that I was getting at.

EDIT: To elaborate a bit: consider a pretty unrealistic case where nobody busts in the first four levels. I think this means you'll get in about 20 hands in the first four levels. So at Party, this means you'd have an average stack of 16 BBs (20 in the 1000 chip games) after the first 20 hands; at Stars, it means you have an average stack of 10 BBs (1500/ 150). If people aren't busting out quickly, I think you're going to get less play at a Stars turbo than at a Party game.

[mic_check12]

Honestly man, You can kill the $27 turbos on stars. They're so weak its unbelievable. What time of day are you playing? They can be a little more difficult in the day (I'm in the UK so day for me is early morning for you guys in the states). Come the evening here, they're full of fish donating. I know the WSOP only finished recently but already there seems to have been an influx of new players. Terrible. Someone tried to enlighten me as to the theory behind reraising an UTG raiser all in from the bb on the 3rd hand with Q8s last night. (obv he flushed the river)

I haven't played as many of the $60 turbos as UMTERP but the ones I have played I didn't find much harder. In both games you just gotta tread the line between the weak tighties that you can hammer for their blinds towards the middle stages and the loosey gooseys who aint gonna give up their blind for anything. In fact I find these turbos way more profitable than Party SNGs, although perhaps this is indicative of a weakness on my behalf to adjust to the style of play and game structure over there.

[11t]

I've played the 16's and 27's pretty extensively and I wouldn't say they are very hard, but they definitely are high variance and require to a certain extent a different level of play than on party. You get less hands per tournament due to the 5 min. structure and the blinds get pretty crazy once it hits 200/400.

But yah, taking a 20 buy-in drop isn't that abnormal playing these but a high hourly rate is pretty easily sustainable. The 27's are harder than the 16's though but you can easily make 20+ $/hr. 4 tabling the 16's by playing extremely formulaically.

Mind if I ask what your name is on Stars? We have probably played together since I moved down limits like two weeks ago after I hit a 25 buyin drop at the 27's. I have a feeling I know who you are.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

Mind if I ask what your name is on Stars? We have probably played together since I moved down limits like two weeks ago after I hit a 25 buyin drop at the 27's. I have a feeling I know who you are.

[/ QUOTE ]

My screen name is no secret. It's "durron597".

[1Winston]

Are you Eleventy? Player that was mentioned earlier in this thread?

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you Eleventy? Player that was mentioned earlier in this thread?

[/ QUOTE ]

What is your screen name 1winston? I checked my tournament history I haven't played with anyone named "1winston" recently.

[The Yugoslavian]

Durron,

All this [censored] is in your head....I've never played on Stars but am almost positive that the 16s are not going to be harder than the 27s....

The only anamoly level I've encountered is the $33s at Party and it was only for ~1 month. This can be explained by a temporary bottleneck phenomenon and relatively quickly solved itself. By the time people had realized that the bottleneck was making the level relatively too hard, good players were leaving it anyway so it didn't really end up mattering.

You need to decide that you will beat the 16s...and then work on beating them.

You already have a tendency to overthink everything (my biggest problem as well)....but you have to keep it in check so that you don't end up coming to conclusions that damage your confidence or ability to play winning poker.

Now, if you want to take a shot at getting to higher levels quickly (which has pros and cons) then just move up when your bankroll is ok and move down when it isn't...however, I'd recommend just doing battle in the $16s and focusing on playing the right way.

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Yugoslav

[1Winston]

yes. I think it may have been on Saturday, though not sure. I just remember seeing your name at the time and thinking " I think he is a 2+2er". Unless there is another durron### out there. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
yes. I think it may have been on Saturday, though not sure. I just remember seeing your name at the time and thinking " I think he is a 2+2er". Unless there is another durron### out there. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah I remember that one! When you request multiple tournament summaries at once it cuts off the other players in the last few. I pulled them up individually for saturday and I found it.

Yeah I busted in 8th when I pushed a what I figured was almost certainly a 10 outer into a pot committed opponent and whiffed. That was really dumb.

DUMB HAND OF THE DAY:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 (t1495)
MP2 (t1805)
CO (t1420)
Button (t1670)
SB (t1350)
Idiot (durron597) (t1285)
UTG (t1315)
UTG+1 (t3160)

Preflop: Idiot (durron597) is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Idiot (durron597) raises to t300</font>, SB calls t200.

Flop: (t600) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t500</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Idiot (durron597) raises to t985</font>,

[11t]

Indeed I am Eleventy

[11t]

I am Eleventy.

[1Winston]

I see you out there quite a bit. How many are you playing a day?

[11t]

I try and play like 50 or so a day

[barry111]

I have played the 16's almost exclusively through my last 800 SNG’s; during that time I have played a many 27's and have noticed very little skill difference. Through a combination of variance and playing like a donk I have had my first 30 buy-in drop of my poker career, it has been really rough for me the last three weeks. I am worried that I am going to have my first month in the red since I have purchased PT. Because of this and to get my confidence back I have moved down to the 6.50's even though I think I can beat the 16's I never want to have to put more money in my Poker account. What I am trying to say is the 16’s do seem a lot tougher these last four weeks then they have the last four months.