Limp Re-Raising in Razz... when (if ever) is this a good idea

[MisterKing]

I was playing in a Razz S&G on Full Tilt last night when I got into a rather extended conversation with another player about the merits of limp re-raising in early position in Razz. The other guy's view was that this is basically never a good play, while I said I thought there were several specific situations where it was definitely best.

Without going back through the entire discussion, his view was that 1.) limp re-raises will basically always be called, 2.) they bloat the pot and make it harder to force your opponents to make mistakes on later streets, 3.) Solid starters like A2/3 are only marginal early favorites over decent starters like 45/6 assuming a random distribution of dead cards. [disclaimer: I don't know how true #3 is, but I assume he wasn't way off base]. He argued that because of 1, 2, and 3, L-R-R was really a bad move, particularly if it gave calling stations (who play poorly) and excuse to fold if they brick on 4th or 5th.

OTOH, I explained that while there are many cases where it seems a L-R-R would not be in order, the following cases would be notable exceptions:

1.) You're playing a low stakes game, and opponents tend to call and chase with very, very poor hands. Opponents usually fail to even consider what their opponents might be holding. In these cases, you are extracting solid value every time you get a L-R-R in and are called, particularly by multiple donkeys. I suppose a qualifier I'd put on this case is that if they're all passive you might not want to do it.

2.) You limped early with decent cards only to find that a poor player has completes in late position (with a worse door card than you) and the bring-in poster has folded. Here you're heads-up with what figures to be a superior hand, in a small pot. You know you're ahead now, and of course have no clue what's to come on 4th and later streets. Your L-R-R on 3rd may also have the added benefit of giving you sufficient odds to peel one card on fourth if you brick and your opponent catches ok (again, he plays poorly).

3.) You are short stacked in a tournament with a fantastic starter (and favorable dead cards) in EP, and several loose players are left to act after you. You'd like to get your money in, but will not be able to knock out many players with a completion bet. Your L-R-R gets your stack in as a (likely) favorite over the field, and traps the looser opponents for one bet at a time along the way.

I'm new to razz, but have been playing Hold'Em for a long time and have read Sklansky's TOP, which seems very applicable in each of these cases. So anyhow, what's the verdict on L-R-R? Thanks for the input.

[Andy B]

Sorry, I don't play much razz. Felicia is our resident razz enthusiast but she's busy what with breast cancer and all, so I don't know how much posting she's doing these days.

A23 is indeed only a tiny favorite over 456. You can go to www.twodimes.net/poker (http://www.twodimes.net/poker) to confirm this. The problem with putting in a double raise is that it makes it correct to call on fourth no matter what you catch. You are therefore playing exactly the same as a bad player.

I don't play much razz, but I do play a bit of stud/8, and limp/re-raising sure is fun.

[IronDragon1]

Like Andy said-suprise Andy made a quality Stud poker strategy post-all limp re-raising does is give you opponents odds to call you to see fourth. And especially in razz-when your hand runs relatively close in value on third against any hand that will call you down-you could easily be putting yourself in a situation where you are just engineering the pot so that your opponent is correct to continue.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

I don't often limp in to begin with, but I could limp-reraise against a clown who very possibly completes in an attempt to steal, interpreting my early limp as weakness and I may want to give myself a reason to call on fourth if I catch bad and he catches good. Generally, I do this occasionally against bad players who appear to complete automatically with an ace upcard (and such players do exist).

I may limp-reraise when a couple of door cards are folded giving me a strong hand due to dead cards. Usually, I in this case, I am limping in with something like a three-card 7 and there is a completition and a raise and I reraise to get more money in the pot with what is probably the best hand due to what is out there.

I may limp-reraise in multiway pots when I know a bunch of weak players are calling. I actually do run into the scenario where bad players will call two bets cold with a 9 (or worse) showing if they have already put money in the pot.

[bholdr]

i sure hope you flagged this dude and have him on your 'trouble' list... he's right. razz doesn't really take off till fifth street, and you should try to keep the pot small until then so you can manipulate your opponents better. I am far from a razz expert, and only dabble in that game.

I might L-R-R in a tournament, however, especially if i wass short stacked and wanted to get it all in early and take my chances. but only then. hopefully felicialee will pop in and add her two cents, but i imagine it'll be the same things andyb has said.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

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A23 is indeed only a tiny favorite over 456. You can go to www.twodimes.net/poker (http://www.twodimes.net/poker) to confirm this. The problem with putting in a double raise is that it makes it correct to call on fourth no matter what you catch. You are therefore playing exactly the same as a bad player.

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I forgot to add. It is good to limp-reraise if you can isolate against a weak-tight player who will incorrectly fold on fourth if you catch good and he catches bad.

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A23 is indeed only a tiny favorite over 456. You can go to www.twodimes.net/poker (http://www.twodimes.net/poker) to confirm this. The problem with putting in a double raise is that it makes it correct to call on fourth no matter what you catch. You are therefore playing exactly the same as a bad player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I forgot to add. It is good to limp-reraise if you can isolate against a weak-tight player who will incorrectly fold on fourth if you catch good and he catches bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the main circumstance (other than the tourney all in/short stack situation) I had in mind when I was advocating the L-R-R. The Full Tilt low stakes games are principally populated with two kinds of players: retarded players who continue with paint and pairs on 3rd/4th, and weak-tighties who will often fold when they have the equity to continue. You seldom need the best hand to beat the latter type of player.

If see a 3rd street configuration where I am in EP with a decent hand, everyone between us has trash, and a weak-tight has a good starter just to the right of the bring-in (who has a King showing), then I will often L-R-R. This will do two things: 1.) leave me with the initiative against a weaker player, enabling me to either win the pot with the best hand, or 2.) win the hand by getting the weakie to fold at some point when I catch well and he catches poorly, regardless of whether he should actually fold.

The point about horrible players calling two cold with a 9 showing, if they have $$ invested, is also true in the low stakes games.

**Also: I learned everything I know about Razz from Felicia. I don't know much, but thought I'd point this out. I've played with her live a few times as well -- she's great and I wish her the best in recovery. Her PLO8 post (see her blog) the other day is GREAT!**

[FeliciaLee]

Thanks, -EV.

I play Razz in an almost pure Sklansky way (get the book!), with a few minor adjustments for today's easier games. We don't have to take chances squeezing blood out of a turnip these days, the fish are always around and give us their money easily.

Depending on table conditions, I will try to the limp-raise at times. It's not really a limp-reraise, like in HE, because the "raiser" can only complete, not raise. But we are all used to saying limp-reraise, so whichever. I know what you mean.

If there is a very dominant presence at my table, and I do not mind being tied to a hand (most of my pair cards are dead), I will try this most often. Making the pot big ties me to taking off further cards. While I may have started with a much better three-card hand than him, hand values are somewhat close, and I know I'm going to be tied down if I LRR, especially if there are lots of low cards out and lots of limpers.

Playing well later in the hand is pretty important. I've never seen a decent Razz player check when they catch a good card, regardless of whether or not it paired them. Mediocre players do this all the time, giving away their hand.

Online play is much more straight up than live play. I can't see them cutting off three chips to complete after me, so I only know that they might go for the completion due to their earlier betting patterns.

Since Razz can be such a transient game online, I tend to play less creatively and more straight up.

Good luck and thanks for mentioning my PLO8 article. I have actually been directed to another site about PLO8 and asked to look it over. I think it will likely result in a few further posts on the subject, and is site is much more comprehensive, yet controversial than Badger's site.

Felicia /images/graemlins/smile.gif
www.felicialee.net (http://www.felicialee.net)

[Andy B]

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I forgot to add. It is good to limp-reraise if you can isolate against a weak-tight player who will incorrectly fold on fourth if you catch good and he catches bad.

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And how often do you find opponents like this?

[PokrLikeItsProse]

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I forgot to add. It is good to limp-reraise if you can isolate against a weak-tight player who will incorrectly fold on fourth if you catch good and he catches bad.

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And how often do you find opponents like this?

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Not very often. I might run into one every 10-15 sessions or so. But they do exist. For some reason, they are more inclined to carry on if they catch a face card than if they pair.