KQo in the BB

[durron597]

Stars $15+$1, should I be afraid of a mp Limper that doesn't raise the turn? On the river I was just trying to get a cheap showdown.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 (t1430)
MP2 (t2275)
MP3 (t1325)
CO (t1495)
Button (t1495)
SB (t1520)
Hero (t1450)
UTG (t1450)
UTG+1 (t1060)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls t50, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls t50, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t200) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t150</font>, MP2 calls t150, Button folds, SB folds.

Turn: (t500) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t350</font>, MP2 calls t350.

River: (t1200) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t250</font>,

[octaveshift]

Calling is the new raising.

That said, I have no idea where you are in this hand...

Maybe checkraise the turn, and if he calls, check/fold the river. (The thought being that it makes the river very easy to play, and very likely costs you the same amount.)

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[11t]

Yah I have no idea where he is in this hand either.

I don't like c'ring the turn though since versus any standard raise in proportion to the pot your c'r is going to be a huge portion of your stack.

I'd check/call the river.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't like c'ring the turn though since versus any standard raise in proportion to the pot your c'r is going to be a huge portion of your stack.


[/ QUOTE ]

What about just a check/call on the turn?

Ugh. That might induce a bluff and we'd be back to square one.

/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
That said, I have no idea where you are in this hand...

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I should check raise the flop, and if I get called I know I'm beat? I'm not that afraid of a card, most likely anyone who's behind is drawing to three outs.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]

Maybe I should check raise the flop, and if I get called I know I'm beat? I'm not that afraid of a card, most likely anyone who's behind is drawing to three outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like it. I should CR the flop more often. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[lastchance]

No draws here. 3 opponents. TPGK.

I normally CR the flop and go from there. Might be a few too many chips to be putting in though.

Betting the flop here is fine, but I don't think betting the turn is fine either. You just don't know where you are if you bet the turn and get fired into on the river.

Damn, I have absolutely no idea whatsoever how to play this hand.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

Damn, I have absolutely no idea whatsoever how to play this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know, that's why I posted it. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]

Damn, I have absolutely no idea whatsoever how to play this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad I wasn't alone. I think CR'ing the flop would definitely make the rest of the hand much easier.

I like the idea of using a flop CR with TPGK...

[lastchance]

But what happens when you are called? Do you fire into the turn, or do you check-call down?

I think that's actually probably the best line. Some kind of check-call, check-call, bet river line.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that's actually probably the best line. Some kind of check-call, check-call, bet river line.

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot is always going to be large on the turn. I feel like you bleed a lot of chips off this way. Hero's hand is exactly the right strength that we want to find out whether we have the best hand ASAP.

[lastchance]

But you simply aren't going to find out whether or not you have the best hand. It's going to be really hard for you to figure it out as long as your opponent is tough. Best way to do that is to check-raise, but you're still not knowing where you are if Villain calls that check-raise and doesn't put in a raise.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
But you simply aren't going to find out whether or not you have the best hand. It's going to be really hard for you to figure it out as long as your opponent is tough. Best way to do that is to check-raise, but you're still not knowing where you are if Villain calls that check-raise and doesn't put in a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the advantage to c/ring the flop is that I likely buy a free river. If I c/r the flop, the turn goes check/check (or check/he bets/i fold), and then I blocking bet the river I think I extract the most with the best hand (against a QJ type hand) and lose the least to a better hand.

[45suited]

I'm surprised that nobody asked what your read was of the villain. Obviously that greatly affects the play of the hand (which I am just as baffled about as everyone else BTW). Hard to know where you stand.

Against typical opponents, I C/R this flop. This gets more money into the pot when I'm ahead and lets me know sooner where I stand. It's tough if villain flat calls the C/R though, but that's the way I play against a typical opponent who will bet when checked to.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised that nobody asked what your read was of the villain. Obviously that greatly affects the play of the hand (which I am just as baffled about as everyone else BTW). Hard to know where you stand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel pretty dumb because I wasn't paying attention because I was posting the other thread and playing 3 tables and the blinds go up faster in Stars turbos than Party.

For the sake of this discussion I went back and looked at the HH... this was the 14th hand of the SnG.

Villian folds hands 1-3.
Hand 4 Villian limps for 20 chips. Calls a flop bet on a A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif board, calls a turn bet 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, leads the river when checked to 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif river, he shows K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hand 5 fold.
Hand 6 limp/fold to heavy action.
Hand 7 limp, call small bets on a Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif board, he shows A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif and loses to trip queens
Hand 8 fold
Hand 9 (BB) check option fold flop
Hand 10 (SB) complete/fold
Hand 11 Makes a 6x BB over a UTG limper, all fold
Hand 12 &amp; 13 fold

[45suited]

The more I look at the hand, I think that chances of you being ahead are very slim. I really hate playing this hand OOP, for that reason I think it's more important to C/R the flop.

Once he calls that turn, I'm checking the river.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

Once he calls that turn, I'm checking the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet the river because my hand has showdown value and I can't call a river bet much larger than that. If he waits until the river to raise me I am definitely beat.

I'll post results tomorrow.

[durron597]

He called the river; he had AQo and HHIG. I almost typed into the chat "nice limp with AQo" but decided against it.

I think c/ring this flop makes this hand much easier to play.

[grandgnu]

I figured him for 10/J actually on the turn, which is another nice limping hand.

[Unarmed]

Why does everyone want to C/R a drawless flop.
You can do that with any two cards...

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I figured him for 10/J actually on the turn, which is another nice limping hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he actually had JT then he played decently, I'm not a fan of his line with AQ though.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not a fan of his line with AQ though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really?
Why not?

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I'm not a fan of his line with AQ though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really?
Why not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he only gets this many chips out of me when I have exactly KQ, and he loses a lot when I have Q8, Q9, JT, 22, 88, 89.... (I play QJ differently here).

Edit: I'm not saying he gets zero chips out of me when I have QJ or QT, just not as many as when I have KQ.

[pokerlaw]

If you bet the flop like this, I like to check the turn. Maybe you will see a free card and it is so hard to tell what he has since he limped and then flat called.

I try to see the rest of the hand as cheaply as possible to get a read for how villian plays. Given that he limped and then flat called, hopefully if he bets, it won't be for that much.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

I try to see the rest of the hand as cheaply as possible to get a read for how villian plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is what I was thinking, but if he has me beat he's not checking behind on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
Given that he limped and then flat called, hopefully if he bets, it won't be for that much.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's possible he will bet less than half pot on the turn but I would expect unlikely.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I'm not a fan of his line with AQ though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really?
Why not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he only gets this many chips out of me when I have exactly KQ, and he loses a lot when I have Q8, Q9, JT, 22, 88, 89.... (I play QJ differently here).

Edit: I'm not saying he gets zero chips out of me when I have QJ or QT, just not as many as when I have KQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah exactly, Villain is way ahead or way behind.
That's why you call the hand down.
What would you have done with AQ here?

What about raising before the flop? since ur opponent limps in with hands like K5s, maybe u eliminate some of the possibilities and make ur job a little easier after the flop?

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
What about raising before the flop? since ur opponent limps in with hands like K5s, maybe u eliminate some of the possibilities and make ur job a little easier after the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't advocate raising out of position with K/Q offsuit.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
What about raising before the flop? since ur opponent limps in with hands like K5s, maybe u eliminate some of the possibilities and make ur job a little easier after the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

How is my job made easier when I have to play a big pot out of position?

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

Yeah exactly, Villain is way ahead or way behind.
That's why you call the hand down.
What would you have done with AQ here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Check-raise the flop, hahah.

[adanthar]

When the blind likes his hand enough to make 2 big bets like that on an initially drawless board, I'll just call down AQ, too.

His flop call is perfect BTW, as he wants QJ to come in behind him as well.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Yeah exactly, Villain is way ahead or way behind.
That's why you call the hand down.
What would you have done with AQ here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Check-raise the flop, hahah.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ooops.
Sorry, we're talking about different things.

VIllain has position with AQ on a Q rag rag board and gets led into for 150. He is way ahead or way behind and should therefore call.

Hero is OOP with KQ. He probably has the best hand, but might not. I check/call because a free card doesn't hurt me, and I don't want to bloat this pot OOP against AQ/QJ, not knowing which one I'm up against. If checked around I'll lead the turn.

C/Ring is kinda weird because it puts you in a crappy position if called. You're OOP on the turn and if you blink Villain can take the pot from you. If you bet you're pot sticking yourself with TP2K. Plus it folds out everyting you beat. Barf. Everyone here wants to C/R to find out where they're at. F*ck that. It makes no sense.

Just play the hand for value. Doing so has all sorts of other benfeits, like sucking in mid pairs that fold to a flop bet but come along when the flop checks around and you make what looks like a turn stab, etc etc.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
When the blind likes his hand enough to make 2 big bets like that on an initially drawless board, I'll just call down AQ, too.

His flop call is perfect BTW, as he wants QJ to come in behind him as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, was Unarmed asking me if I had AQ in the blind or AQ in MP? If the latter, I, um, raise preflop?

[Jason Strasser]

Man a little piece of vomit formed in my mouth reading this thread.

To everyone who check-raises this flop, well i want to vomit. What the hell is going to call you besides MAYBE QJ QT. What draws do you need to charge for? You have a good hand and whether you take it to the felt is one thing, but jamming a ton of chips in on the flop on this type of board just strikes me as dumb. All the hands you want in there go bye bye.

In terms of hero's line, I like it except for maybe the river. Is a typical opponent capable of bluffing the river? Are you calling a raise? Your river play is obviously extremely weak, I'd probably either check/call or bet more. I mean, you probably think your opponent has a queen with a worse kicker, or maybe a hand like A8 or K8 that doesnt believe you. You should use this blocking bet only if you aren't willing to check/call a decent sized bet.

Another idea is to check the turn. If your opponent bets, call and figure out the river. If it checks through then you bet strong on the river and get called by worse hands.

-Jason

[Unarmed]

Thanks for the post Jason.
What do you make of checking the flop?
Play the hand for value if MP bets, calling all the way.
If its checked around you bet the turn, which induces people to call with all sorts of stuff they would have folded on the flop.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

Your river play is obviously extremely weak,

[/ QUOTE ]

Do I *ever* get raised by a worse hand here? Does a worse hand bet the river when checked to?

[ QUOTE ]
If your opponent bets, call and figure out the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't check because I knew if he bet I would have no idea what to do on the river if I called.

I hate being OOP. I think I like Unarmed's line of check calling the flop and leading the turn.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate being OOP. I think I like Unarmed's line of check calling the flop and leading the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
If you check/call the flop, don't lead the turn. You'll fold everything you beat. If its checked AROUND, then you lead the turn.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

Wait. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
If you check/call the flop, don't lead the turn. You'll fold everything you beat. If its checked AROUND, then you lead the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok normally hands don't prove as difficult as this one is for some reason /images/graemlins/tongue.gif I'm still not really happy with *any* of the lines discussed in this thread.

So basically I should check/call flop, check/call turn, check/call river? If the flop or turn check around, lead next street?

I really don't like calling what will be a big bet on the turn and river here after check/calling flop. If I check/call flop and then lead the turn, I could get a call from a hand like QJ but he will check behind on the river.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
If I check/call flop and then lead the turn, I could get a call from a hand like QJ

[/ QUOTE ]

I really doubt it.
C/Cing the flop and leading the turn is one of the strongest lines in NLHE, (second only to C/Cing the flop and C/Ring the turn) especially on a dry board. I use it when I want people to fold, not call.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

I really doubt it.
C/Cing the flop and leading the turn is one of the strongest lines in NLHE, (second only to C/Cing the flop and C/Ring the turn) especially on a dry board. I use it when I want people to fold, not call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you agree that check/calling the flop and turn is a good way to face three large bets where I have no idea if I'm good? Or can I assume that most players won't fire the third barrel on the river unless I'm beaten?

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
Most players won't fire the third barrel on the river unless I'm beaten?

[/ QUOTE ]

Most players will check behind on the turn with AQ. Really though, don't worry about it. Most of the time this hand will either be checked around on the flop and you can lead the turn, picking up all sorts of value from weaker hands, lookup artists, gutshots, whatever.

Just try to get comfortable with not knowing exactly where you are in the hand. Don't worry about the pot getting big, AQ doesn't want to make this pot big either, and your flop call on a done dry board would probably scare the ish out of him.

[Jason Strasser]

[ QUOTE ]
Do I *ever* get raised by a worse hand here? Does a worse hand bet the river when checked to?

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhhh, I'm not sure your point here... yes? I mean, I've seen both. What if the opponent here held a worse pair, decided it was no good, but that he could push you out... I mean... dont bet small fractions of the pot and expect players to play straightforward.

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't check because I knew if he bet I would have no idea what to do on the river if I called.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is called playing poker. Are you really sure you'd have no idea what to do? I mean, if you believe him fold, if you dont, call.

Weak players will often play certain lines that make life easier because they share your fear of not knowing what to do. If you feel like you are going to make bad decisions checking the turn then fine, obviously make the move to have your opponent define his hand more. However, the good players are the ones that will sometimes put themselves in tricky spots, but the best spots. See some of bruiser's old top pair posts in plnl. Essentially they involve him making one pair vs an aggressive 25-50 NL opponent, playing pretty passively, and having some extremely hard decisions. However, bruiser felt like even though he could avoid those spots, they were the highest EV spots (provided he made good decisions).

This attitude:

[ QUOTE ]
I hate being OOP. I think I like Unarmed's line of check calling the flop and leading the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Makes me think that you are scared of tricky spots and are willing to give up EV to make things simple. Thats fine, but IMO not optimal. And an example of taking a line like that would be showing tons of strength by check calling and leading the turn, then folding to a raise. As you progress to higher limits and such, you will just get murdered doing that because the hand range that raises you is almost always something WAY ahead (two-pair, set), or a bluff. So you can take that idea and understand why taking this line with a hand that is not very strong or very weak, is usually a bad idea.

-Jason

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

Just try to get comfortable with not knowing exactly where you are in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Normally I am, but normally I play most of my hands in position. It's the combination of having a decent but not great hand out of position that is making this hand so hard for me.

[Jason Strasser]

Checking the flop is obviously fine, especially given the texture of the board. It's definitely a very viable option, especially because there aren't many turn cards you wouldnt like to see. With deeper stacks, I like betting the flop just to get rid of those very tough hands to see that might pick up a weird running flush draw or straight draw while you may improve your hand... That can get ugly... But thats the cashgame jason talking.

-Jason

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Essentially they involve him making one pair vs an aggressive 25-50 NL opponent, playing pretty passively, and having some extremely hard decisions. However, bruiser felt like even though he could avoid those spots, they were the highest EV spots (provided he made good decisions).

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never thought about it this way. Perhaps I should have earlier. Thanks, I think this will help my game a lot.

I remember a lot of YOUR old posts taking lines on earlier streets to give myself easy decisions on later streets. Maybe I'm taking that idea too far.

[Jason Strasser]

Man, you can go to the archives and get a whole country full of strassa2 posts that I would strongly disagree with or even laugh at. Some are good.

I dunno, I've changed a lot since I spent my days really grinding out sngs. Perhaps my mentality has changed too, especially since one of my big ideas was to keep things simple when you are multi-tabling.