View Full Version : Blind defense versus a chronic thief
baronzeus
07-18-2005, 07:32 PM
His Att to steal was something around 80 over a good # of hands. He was very TAGish and was annoying the hell out of my blinds.
Edit: I'm terrible at blind defense. Are there any good sources on this?
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl
Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB calls, Button calls.
Flop: (9 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls.
Turn: (6.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls.
River: (10.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.
Final Pot: 10.50 BB
I don't mind bet/call, call, call.
JrJordan
07-18-2005, 07:53 PM
I also just call down after the flop raise.
FWIW, the new HUSH FAQ that was posted earlier today has some great links on blind stealing and defending.
baronzeus
07-18-2005, 08:02 PM
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I also just call down after the flop raise.
FWIW, the new HUSH FAQ that was posted earlier today has some great links on blind stealing and defending.
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What would you do if you had Q high? or T high? You have no showdown value here, so you need to push him off right?
With a board like 772 that is so hard to hit I wanted to 3bet here. Is that bad?
Psycho21
07-18-2005, 11:44 PM
I would have three bet the flop. A lot of times they will call the 3 bet and then fold to a bet on the turn. It seems likely that he hit the jack though, unless he is the kind of player who would raise the turn with nothing. If you three bet and he still raises you can easily fold.
Monty Cantsin
07-19-2005, 12:57 AM
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Edit: I'm terrible at blind defense. Are there any good sources on this?
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Tons of crunked out Jason Pohl blind defense goodness in the first part of this pdf file (http://vindikation.com/poker/shorthanded.pdf) courtesy of this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2848207&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&vc=1). w00t.
It doesn't exactly tell you how to defend your blinds, but it sort of cracks open the blind attack/defense machine and shows you the mathematical cogs and wheels inside of it. You still have to put it back together yourself.
/mc
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I also just call down after the flop raise.
FWIW, the new HUSH FAQ that was posted earlier today has some great links on blind stealing and defending.
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What would you do if you had Q high? or T high? You have no showdown value here, so you need to push him off right?
With a board like 772 that is so hard to hit I wanted to 3bet here. Is that bad?
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If u don't have a showdown value hand, I think 3betting is good. It's possible though that he will get hyperaggressive with crap and cap it, which you should chase the turn and fold the river most likely.
If that's the case, next time I catch a piece of the flop with a decent defending hand (say, QT or something), I'm going apeshit on his ass and taking it all back.
cartman
07-19-2005, 05:05 AM
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What would you do if you had Q high? or T high? You have no showdown value here, so you need to push him off right?
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I think this is one of the most fundamentally misunderstood concepts on this forum. Unless you are sure your opponent is capable of folding a better hand here, 3-betting with either of these hands would be about as -EV as a play could ever be. There is not one opponent in fifty who will fold prior to the river after raising preflop then raising the flop against a preflop 3-bettor. That means, if you don't get capped on the flop or raised on the turn (and that's a big "if"), that you have to 3-bet the flop, bet the turn, and bet the river all on the prayer that maybe he also has a hand with no showdown value and he will fold.
The 3/6 and the 5/10 are VALUE games (as I suspect 10/20 is also). I have to constantly remind myself that any play predicated on an opponent folding a hand with any showdown value whatsoever is futile.
Cartman
baronzeus
07-19-2005, 05:18 AM
The problem with hyperaggressive opponents here is that they will raise almost anything here. But if you 3bet with something like J high and bet the turn UI, they will fold if they haven't hit by the turn. In this case, the guy had JTo and hit the turn (damnit), but I knew he was FOS on the flop, and it was clear that my A high was good.
Maybe I should have folded the turn.
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The problem with hyperaggressive opponents here is that they will raise almost anything here. But if you 3bet with something like J high and bet the turn UI, they will fold if they haven't hit by the turn. In this case, the guy had JTo and hit the turn (damnit), but I knew he was FOS on the flop, and it was clear that my A high was good.
Maybe I should have folded the turn.
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JT is a worthy steal hand, IMO. I probably play the same as he did.
I believe you should have 3bet the flop if you think he was FoS. I like showing down in these spots, though.
baronzeus
07-19-2005, 05:29 AM
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The problem with hyperaggressive opponents here is that they will raise almost anything here. But if you 3bet with something like J high and bet the turn UI, they will fold if they haven't hit by the turn. In this case, the guy had JTo and hit the turn (damnit), but I knew he was FOS on the flop, and it was clear that my A high was good.
Maybe I should have folded the turn.
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JT is a worthy steal hand, IMO. I probably play the same as he did.
I believe you should have 3bet the flop if you think he was FoS. I like showing down in these spots, though.
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The problem with 3 betting the flop is that I have a decent showdown hand. I don't mind him spewing to me with K high or Q high or even worse. But he won't call a turn bet with K high after a flop 3bet in most cases.
On the other hand, if I had had something like 89s and 3bet him, I'd probably 3bet the flop and bet the turn and bet the river.
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The problem with hyperaggressive opponents here is that they will raise almost anything here. But if you 3bet with something like J high and bet the turn UI, they will fold if they haven't hit by the turn. In this case, the guy had JTo and hit the turn (damnit), but I knew he was FOS on the flop, and it was clear that my A high was good.
Maybe I should have folded the turn.
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JT is a worthy steal hand, IMO. I probably play the same as he did.
I believe you should have 3bet the flop if you think he was FoS. I like showing down in these spots, though.
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The problem with 3 betting the flop is that I have a decent showdown hand. I don't mind him spewing to me with K high or Q high or even worse. But he won't call a turn bet with K high after a flop 3bet in most cases.
On the other hand, if I had had something like 89s and 3bet him, I'd probably 3bet the flop and bet the turn and bet the river.
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hmm...yeah, i think I agree. I still like bet/call, call call best.
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