In Defense of Stockman/poker rigged?

[PokerHorse]

Although I dont believe everything that Stockman says, The truth of the matter is that there are many many experienced players who when the internet first started felt exactly the same way. And many still do. lets just try to look at the facts for a minute. I'm not expressing an opinion at this point so look at the truth and then decide.
#1- There is no regulation or enforcement...Period.
the idea that a poker site would not risk being closed because they are making large sums from the rake, isnt true, because there is no risk. Who is regulating them???
No one.
#2- in order to make maximun rake, you want all players to stay in the game longer. How do you achieve this? One way is to have promotions to get new players in, etc. Tourneys and so on.(the cheating way would be to manipulate games)
#3-It is POSSIBLE to program the software to alter the games and remain virtually undetectable.(again ,'m not sayin it is, but it is possible).
many of us know computer geeks.All the really knowledgable ones I know laugh at me for playing online. Not a good feeling.
#4- It is impossible to make a truly random number or card generator. (There was a big controversy over a programmer in vegas who handled the slots, and tried to warn the casinos that they had a big problem on there hands, as patterns could be detected.)

#5- i play online, I'm a tight player(i know,who cares), and i can honestly say that I have experienced tremendous swings of 180-200 bets going up and down. there has not been much middle ground in my results. I'm either on a unbelievable winning streak, or a major losing streak. no inbetween. At 55-65 hands per hour I'm curious why the swings would increase so drastically from my 20-40 game I have been playing for 18 years? I've read some of the explanations, but there are bad players in both worlds.

Does this mean that its all rigged? No, ... but what it does mean is that the internet experience can make rational normal people feel like something is happening.
My only question is why the streaks. Bad beats, luck drawouts happen everyday, but either swinging straight up or straight down doesnt occur with any type of regularity
in live games.
So, instead of laughing at Stockman, understand that there are actually very rational reasons for people being skeptical.
good luck

[IndieMatty]

But I'm 4 tabling...so my variance is higher right?

[RedManPlus]

Very well stated.
May Stockman rest in peace.

Now we can await...
The usual onslaught of the Teen Poker Zombies.

(1) Sleazebags that run unregulated casinos would NEVER cheat.

(2) Rich people/firms are always honest...
Because they don't need or want more money/power.

(3) You are just another pathetic loser, moron, etc.

(4) Online poker is either 100% clean... or 100% rigged.

(4) 1% of the software is checked in Australia.

(5) Poker Site XYZ is regulated by the Satan's Choice Gaming Commission... so there.

(6) You can sue Party in Gibraltar... so there.

(7) Let's change the subject and hijack this thread...
By starting another endless, pointless discussion...
About Random Number Generators...
Which have nothing whatsoever to do with rigging/cheating.

Yawn... 1,000,000 times.

rm+

/images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[dannosaurus]

So I ask what would solve the problems:

1) What can be done to make sure that they are not rigged?

2) What could be done to convince everyone that the games are not rigged?

[Python49]

OMFG ONLINE POKER IS SO RIGGED! I am now CONVINCED!

[dannosaurus]

I am not agreeing that it’s rigged. I play online almost daily, but only for the last few months. Clearly there are people who think it is rigged. I know one or two people who do. I know a couple more who think it is riddled with cheaters.

I believe that the weaker players are going believe this because they need to explain the reasons they lose other than “they suck”. I personally would like to see a larger number of weak players at the table and convincing them it isn’t rigged might be one of those ways.

So I present the question, how do you convince people that it isn't rigged? I am not sure you can convince them 100%!

[PokerHorse]

there is still collusion going on for sure as i have first hand experience on more than one occasion. pokertracker allowed me to take a look at hands and study the action. many of these colluders will not fold the bad hand and stay to the river in order to plead,"i'm just a bad player", but on 3-4 occasions the play was so obviously collusion that i immediately found myself checking the stats. So although it might not be rigged, you need to be careful. good luck

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
But I'm 4 tabling...so my variance is higher right?

[/ QUOTE ]

nh

[Shandrax]

Undetectable collusion is possible of course. Just imagine two friends playing on different locations using Teamspeak to relay their hands. This knowledge alone improves the odd-calculation because instead of x/47 they get a better approximation with x/45. Tiny advantage of course, but an advantage nevertheless.

Another thing is the vulnerability of the source code. If I was Don Spaghetti of the Las Vegas mob, you can bet that I'd look for a way to get my own manipulated site online. Criminal common sense dictates to seek for a way to get a share of this poker-hype /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[silvershade]

The other collusion is Team Raising, if Cheater A gets a monster and is one on one with victim B, victim B can limit Cheater A's raising by not re-raising him. Add Cheater B in and suddenly you are looking at caps on each betting round as they collude to fleece anyone not quick enough to get out of the way..... I'm pretty sure I have witnessed this once or twice myself, with Cheater B showing down rags while Cheater A scoops a fat profit.

[Shandrax]

[ QUOTE ]
The other collusion is Team Raising, if Cheater A gets a monster and is one on one with victim B, victim B can limit Cheater A's raising by not re-raising him. Add Cheater B in and suddenly you are looking at caps on each betting round as they collude to fleece anyone not quick enough to get out of the way..... I'm pretty sure I have witnessed this once or twice myself, with Cheater B showing down rags while Cheater A scoops a fat profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

That one shows in the hand history logs though. If the very same people start building pots and one of them has a trash hand the casino could backtrack it. Relaying hands on the other side is undetectable.

[ianlippert]

[ QUOTE ]
The other collusion is Team Raising, if Cheater A gets a monster and is one on one with victim B, victim B can limit Cheater A's raising by not re-raising him. Add Cheater B in and suddenly you are looking at caps on each betting round as they collude to fleece anyone not quick enough to get out of the way..... I'm pretty sure I have witnessed this once or twice myself, with Cheater B showing down rags while Cheater A scoops a fat profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you see this happen you should mark down the hand # and send it to the site. I have heard of many instances of people turning in cheaters to the poker sites. Nobody said online poker was 100% safe, but the chances of colluders not eventually getting caught is pretty much zero. Collusion is a much bigger problem in real life where it is much harder to detect. Poker is a gamble in many respects, if you cant handle that dont play.

[silvershade]

I have to confess that i didn't forward the hands to the site involved and I wasnt actually the victim just a witness to something that looked really suspicious, if I had been the victim I'd probably have been more inclined to act, as it was I just moved to another table. That I've seen this once or twice in many thousands of hands isnt enough to stop me playing, just enough to make me move table if I get suspicious.

[ipp147]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure I have witnessed this once or twice myself, with Cheater B showing down rags while Cheater A scoops a fat profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they are doing it propery Cheater B should fold to the last bet to avoid showing down rags and therefore suspicion.

[jman220]

No one here is arguing that player cheating does not exist. I think we all acknowledge that collusion, and players working together does exist, and is a problem. The poker sites do try to curtail this. Could they do more? I think so. But people who think that the large multi-billion dollar poker sites (I'm talking the big ones, Party, Stars, UB, Paradise, Ft, etc.) are rigged are just looking for excuses as to why they can't win at poker.

[PokerHorse]

actually they will call down with rags in order to avoid suspicion. They can claim bad play. Why would i call the hand down if i was cheating? etc