Waiting for the turn to raise with a draw...

[x2ski]

Villain is a 23/8.7 after ~100 hands

In addition to thoughts on my play, what do you think villain had that would cause him to raise pre-flop and stop-n-go the turn/river? 77 and QJd are all I can come up with at the moment, but seems a bit marginal for someone with a PFR <9.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (10.33 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.16 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls.

River: (10.16 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 11.16 BB

[OnkelHotte]

i think UTG has a piece of this flop and wont fold on this board.

i prefer raising the flop with freecards option on the turn!

[callmedonnie]

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i prefer raising the flop with freecards option on the turn!

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that and raising a small bet is cheaper than a big bet. does this make a difference to anyone?

[x2ski]

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i think UTG has a piece of this flop and wont fold on this board.

i prefer raising the flop with freecards option on the turn!

[/ QUOTE ]

I was looking to build the pot with my strong draw... I didn't care about free cards.

[SeaEagle]

I think you have to raise the flop as well. Villian's flop bet indicates he has a piece of the board or a PP. If you hit your hand on the turn, you'll have missed a bet (or two) on the flop. If you miss your hand, you'll likely save yourself a bet by taking a free card.

As for villian's hands, 99,77, and JQ are all possible, although I don't expect someone with his stats to be raising any of those except maybe 99 UTG. I also think there's a chance he put you on a bluff and didn't want to blow you off the hand by 3-betting the turn. What hand do you think he put you on when you 3-bet PF and raised when the 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif fell?

[x2ski]

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i prefer raising the flop with freecards option on the turn!

[/ QUOTE ]

that and raising a small bet is cheaper than a big bet. does this make a difference to anyone?

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said to OnkelHotte, I was looking to build the pot with my strong draw. I didn't want extra small bets in the pot, I wanted extra big bets in the pot /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Is this too unorthodox? It isn't something I normally do, but I didn't think it was a bad idea at the time.

[SeaEagle]

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I was looking to build the pot with my strong draw... I didn't care about free cards.

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Your draw's not so strong after the turn card. Even if all 15 of your possible outs are good, you're a 2-1 underdog and only getting 1-1 on your bet - and getting 3-bet would really suck since you can't fold.

[Nick C]

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i think UTG has a piece of this flop and wont fold on this board.

i prefer raising the flop with freecards option on the turn!

[/ QUOTE ]

I was looking to build the pot with my strong draw... I didn't care about free cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you think Villain is leading worse overcards into you on the flop and turn?

I don't really understand what you're doing in this hand. You might be a favorite heads up on the flop. I think you probably are, actually, but only a slight one. (And you're not a favorite over a hand like ATs.)

After a blank falls on the turn, I think you're an underdog, with just one card to come. And, while your raise does represent a big hand, I don't think Villain is folding anything you beat (I doubt he'll dump an overpair, and the less likely 99/77 just picked up a gutshot).

Edit: Anyway, I would raise the flop. But I don't really like the turn raise.

[krimson]

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I was looking to build the pot with my strong draw... I didn't care about free cards.

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Your draw is not THAT strong. 15 outs if we assume your A's and K's are clean, only 1 card to come. This makes you &lt; 50% to win at the turn so your raise here is -EV since we're HU.

I like raising the flop and betting the turn UI. More fold equity this way.

[x2ski]

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I also think there's a chance he put you on a bluff and didn't want to blow you off the hand by 3-betting the turn. What hand do you think he put you on when you 3-bet PF and raised when the 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif fell?

[/ QUOTE ]

TT/JJ/QQ/KK/AA would all be possible

[x2ski]

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I like raising the flop and betting the turn UI. More fold equity this way.

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I like this line as well. Perhaps I was succumbing (sp?) to FPS.

Anyway, although this didn't occur to me at the time, couldn't he be leading the flop and turn with overs as well, assuming the flop missed me?

[SeaEagle]

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TT/JJ/QQ/KK/AA would all be possible

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Do you slowplay overpairs with a flush draw on the board? If I see someone do that, I always make a note of it since I don't see good players do it very often. If I had been villian, I would have put you on AA, maybe KK, maaaaaybe 88 or a (semi-)bluff. I'd expect you to be on a draw/bluff well over half the time.

[x2ski]

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TT/JJ/QQ/KK/AA would all be possible

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Do you slowplay overpairs with a flush draw on the board?

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No, but is that really slowplaying? A flush draw is staying in no matter what, so you might as well make them pay extra.

Is this not similar to waiting for the turn to raise top-pair/good-kicker on a rainbow flop?

I'm not arguing, I'm asking.

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If I had been villian, I would have put you on AA, maybe KK, maaaaaybe 88 or a (semi-)bluff. I'd expect you to be on a draw/bluff well over half the time.

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Then what would you be holding that would be worthy of seeing the river? A flush draw?

[SeaEagle]

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No, but is that really slowplaying? A flush draw is staying in no matter what, so you might as well make them pay extra.

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By definition, waiting till the turn to raise is slowplaying.

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Is this not similar to waiting for the turn to raise top-pair/good-kicker on a rainbow flop?

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A lot of the time, the problem with slowplaying on a coordinated board isn't that you lose the hand, it's that you don't get to put your raise in on the turn because a scare card comes. AQ on a A94r flop is a pretty safe slowplay since there aren't many turn cards that are going to freeze you up. Sometimes I'll see people wait to raise the turn with AJ and J74r on board. I make a note on these folks too. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

With the hand in question, slowplaying QQ-TT would be really risky since any /images/graemlins/diamond.gif or any overcard might stop you from raising even though you're still ahead. AA and KK are a bit safer of course and, as I said, I would expect you to have them almost half the time.

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Then what would you be holding that would be worthy of seeing the river? A flush draw?

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Well, unfortunately, we know villain stop-n-went, so it's hard to put him on a hand. Up until he didn't 3-bet you on the turn, I would have had him on a high/mid PP or something with a T (flush draw being unlikely since you have the top two flush cards).

Incidentally, I'm not defending his play; I'm just proposing a possible way to explain his strange play on the turn and river.

[private joker]

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I don't really understand what you're doing in this hand. You might be a favorite heads up on the flop. I think you probably are, actually, but only a slight one. (And you're not a favorite over a hand like ATs.)

After a blank falls on the turn, I think you're an underdog, with just one card to come. And, while your raise does represent a big hand, I don't think Villain is folding anything you beat (I doubt he'll dump an overpair, and the less likely 99/77 just picked up a gutshot).

Edit: Anyway, I would raise the flop. But I don't really like the turn raise.

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