I know this may be controversial to some of you...

[curtains]

But early in a sit and go if you are faced with a non steal raise and the blinds are low, please stop reraising with AK!! Just call and play the hand!!!! I really hate reraising with AK in some of the posts I've just read (like 3 in the last 15 minutes), so I'll just make a blanket statement.

Trust me it'll make your life much easier.

[A_PLUS]

Combining your post with the fact that AK is the only severely negative hand in the 1st two levels on PT, I guess I can stop.

[J-Lo]

what if there is a CO min raiser, and you are on button at level 1?

At lvl 2, in a 800 chip game, and the open raiser is in CO/Button and you are in blind-- i usually push here, what about you?

[Freudian]

A related problem I have noticed here is that some just can't let go of AK in level one, even when the actions of the opponents should tell them that AK is probably not the best hand (ie, 6xBB raise and a coldcall before you).

[wookie]

Right on. AK is the best hand that isn't a hand. - w

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
what if there is a CO min raiser, and you are on button at level 1?

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be what we call 'a steal raise'.

[ QUOTE ]
At lvl 2, in a 800 chip game, and the open raiser is in CO/Button and you are in blind-- i usually push here, what about you?

[/ QUOTE ]

He raises to what? Anyway, it's probably fine.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
what if there is a CO min raiser, and you are on button at level 1?

At lvl 2, in a 800 chip game, and the open raiser is in CO/Button and you are in blind-- i usually push here, what about you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Notice I said nonsteal raise. If it is a steal raise I'd need a lot of details to determine my action.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
A related problem I have noticed here is that some just can't let go of AK in level one, even when the actions of the opponents should tell them that AK is probably not the best hand (ie, 6xBB raise and a coldcall before you).

[/ QUOTE ]

A raise to 90 and a call just means 'I am a donk that may or may not have a hand' and 'I am probably a total clown', in that order. You can safely coldcall behind here and pushing in an 800 chip SNG is not that bad.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A related problem I have noticed here is that some just can't let go of AK in level one, even when the actions of the opponents should tell them that AK is probably not the best hand (ie, 6xBB raise and a coldcall before you).

[/ QUOTE ]

A raise to 90 and a call just means 'I am a donk that may or may not have a hand' and 'I am probably a total clown', in that order. You can safely coldcall behind here and pushing in an 800 chip SNG is not that bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or it means "I have AA" and "I have AK". Of course it depends on the players. Some players overbets you should run away from in level 1 and some players overbets you should call/raise.

[curtains]

btw everything is situational, Im basically talking about when the stacks are deep. In your situation where you say there is a raise to 90 and a call for 90, I would usually move allin if I had 800 chips, because the stacks aren't deep enough.

However if it's a raise to 45 and a call for 45, I would just flat call.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A related problem I have noticed here is that some just can't let go of AK in level one, even when the actions of the opponents should tell them that AK is probably not the best hand (ie, 6xBB raise and a coldcall before you).

[/ QUOTE ]

A raise to 90 and a call just means 'I am a donk that may or may not have a hand' and 'I am probably a total clown', in that order. You can safely coldcall behind here and pushing in an 800 chip SNG is not that bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or it means "I have AA" and "I have AK". Of course it depends on the players. Some players overbets you should run away from in level 1 and some players overbets you should call/raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assumed we were talking about level 2 with the raise to 90.

[sng-sam]

Party Poker I'm calling and check folding any flop without an A or K

Pokerstars I'm reraising to isolate and likely betting out to if 1st to act. .I find that the deeper chipstack allows for this creativity and doesn't punish me to bad if I get played back at.

.discuss.


SAM

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A related problem I have noticed here is that some just can't let go of AK in level one, even when the actions of the opponents should tell them that AK is probably not the best hand (ie, 6xBB raise and a coldcall before you).

[/ QUOTE ]

A raise to 90 and a call just means 'I am a donk that may or may not have a hand' and 'I am probably a total clown', in that order. You can safely coldcall behind here and pushing in an 800 chip SNG is not that bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or it means "I have AA" and "I have AK". Of course it depends on the players. Some players overbets you should run away from in level 1 and some players overbets you should call/raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assumed we were talking about level 2 with the raise to 90.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[curtains]

btw my original post was basically stupid because it was too general. However I notice a huge difference in my play with AK compared to people on this forum.

I don't even get remotely happy when I get dealt AK preflop early on, because it's really just not that great a hand. I usually don't play it aggressively at all if there is any aggression before me. Sometimes I fold it to a single raise (although rarely).

Oh this reminds me of the other thing I wanted to post....basically that people should try to save their aggression or fancy moves for times that no one has entered the pot as opposed to times that there are limpers/raisers. I almost never do anything "exotic", once there is action before me. However when there has been no action from anyone, this is almost always your best chance to steal.

Too many posts of people doing weird crap with substandard hands once someone has raised or there are 2-3 limpers or whatever. Just seems so unneccessary to me. Honestly I believe you can win at the highest level of sit and gos without ever doing anything too fancy.

[FieryJustice]

Call me crazy, but I usually just limp with AK in the early levels mainly because if i raise, some donk will push with 66 and I will lose. I play AK much like 33...if i hit my hand, i will hopefully double up. If I miss, i am done with it.

[11t]

This is a good play if you are playing 6 max NL games.

However good NL ring play is very often poor tournament play

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
Call me crazy, but I usually just limp with AK in the early levels mainly because if i raise, some donk will push with 66 and I will lose. I play AK much like 33...if i hit my hand, i will hopefully double up. If I miss, i am done with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is strong enough to raise with in level 1-2. Also you increase your chances of picking up the pot on the flop with at least 132.4%.

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]

btw everything is situational, Im basically talking about when the stacks are deep. In your situation where you say there is a raise to 90 and a call for 90, I would usually move allin if I had 800 chips, because the stacks aren't deep enough.

However if it's a raise to 45 and a call for 45, I would just flat call.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a huge qualification. So you're saying PP it's fine to push AK in this situation but pokerstars no?

[morgan180]

i like this play - part of your effectiveness in playing AK at the early levels is keeping the pot small to leave you flexibility after the flop.

[morgan180]

[ QUOTE ]

Too many posts of people doing weird crap with substandard hands once someone has raised or there are 2-3 limpers or whatever. Just seems so unneccessary to me. Honestly I believe you can win at the highest level of sit and gos without ever doing anything too fancy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I whole-heartedly agree with this. HOHE says that opening pots or pre-flop in general is really the only spot for 'exotic' moves - once the flop comes there is generally a right and a wrong way to play your hand.

generally speaking, of course.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
Call me crazy, but I usually just limp with AK in the early levels mainly because if i raise, some donk will push with 66 and I will lose. I play AK much like 33...if i hit my hand, i will hopefully double up. If I miss, i am done with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you raise with... AA/KK/QQ only?
Noted /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[morgan180]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Call me crazy, but I usually just limp with AK in the early levels mainly because if i raise, some donk will push with 66 and I will lose. I play AK much like 33...if i hit my hand, i will hopefully double up. If I miss, i am done with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you raise with... AA/KK/QQ only?
Noted /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

lol - filing away for use a year from now.. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[KingDan]

[ QUOTE ]

But early in a sit and go if you are faced with a non steal raise and the blinds are low, please stop reraising with AK!! Just call and play the hand!!!! I really hate reraising with AK in some of the posts I've just read (like 3 in the last 15 minutes), so I'll just make a blanket statement.

Trust me it'll make your life much easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about minraises in EP?

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Call me crazy, but I usually just limp with AK in the early levels mainly because if i raise, some donk will push with 66 and I will lose. I play AK much like 33...if i hit my hand, i will hopefully double up. If I miss, i am done with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it works for you I'm sure it's fine, just not my style. I like to raise with it, but ok if someone makes a normal reraise I fold basically 100% of the time.

[curtains]

I almost always just call if facing an EP min raise. I just refuse to put a large % of my stack in preflop with AKo in a sit and go format where I have such a huge edge in many other areas of the game.

Calling preflop is clearly +ev anyway and much less variance. Also it's very deceptive as if they have AQ or AJ and an ace flops, they stand to lose a lot of chips.

[morgan180]

[ QUOTE ]

I almost always just call if facing an EP min raise. I just refuse to put a large % of my stack in preflop with AKo in a sit and go format where I have such a huge edge in many other areas of the game.

Calling preflop is clearly +ev anyway and much less variance. Also it's very deceptive as if they have AQ or AJ and an ace flops, they stand to lose a lot of chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

it does keep volatility down - which is a plus for experienced players that can play well after the flop. it may be a negative for inexperienced player/or those who can't play well after the flop (me) because when we get big starting hands we are looking to increase volatility to accumulate chips, for better or worse. any thoughts?

[Voltron87]

im been saying this for a while. ace king is a drawing hand, play it like one.

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
im been saying this for a while. ace king is a drawing hand, play it like one.

[/ QUOTE ]

So any non-pair is a "drawing hand" for you?

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I almost always just call if facing an EP min raise. I just refuse to put a large % of my stack in preflop with AKo in a sit and go format where I have such a huge edge in many other areas of the game.

Calling preflop is clearly +ev anyway and much less variance. Also it's very deceptive as if they have AQ or AJ and an ace flops, they stand to lose a lot of chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

it does keep volatility down - which is a plus for experienced players that can play well after the flop. it may be a negative for inexperienced player/or those who can't play well after the flop (me) because when we get big starting hands we are looking to increase volatility to accumulate chips, for better or worse. any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Playing after the flop isnt that complicated in these situations. If an ace or a king comes, play your hand accordingly and don't fold once the pot becomes large. If the flop is something like KQJ and you have many opponents, your hand is no longer worth very much, but on a normal top pair board it's strong.

If you miss the flop then probably no more money is going into the pot. I don't think it can possibly be that hard to play AK with 800-1000 starting chips postflop as the caller.

[lastchance]

But what if your opponents will call your reraise-push with ATs and worse, often? (very often)

[morgan180]

[ QUOTE ]

If you miss the flop then probably no more money is going into the pot. I don't think it can possibly be that hard to play AK with 800-1000 starting chips postflop as the caller.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, what about with 1500 chips? I mean is it a major leak to be betting in to a ragged flop w/AK against 1 opponent? I can't see how it is. With 2 opponents it starts to make sense but at my level (11s) you're still looking at hands like AQ,AJ,AT,KQ,KJ that are in there with you and you're ahead a good percentage of the time on that type of flop.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
But what if your opponents will call your reraise-push with ATs and worse, often? (very often)

[/ QUOTE ]

well, how good are you going to play out of position, heads up, with a large preflop pot, against this opponent when you miss the flop?

citanul

[johnnybeef]

There are more than enough players at the 11s and 22s who are willing enough to get all in with any ace to make reraising with AK profitable. I wouldn't recommend it at the 33s and above though.

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im been saying this for a while. ace king is a drawing hand, play it like one.

[/ QUOTE ]

So any non-pair is a "drawing hand" for you?

[/ QUOTE ]

im joking


seriously though, most of the time calling a raise with AK is better than reraising.

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im been saying this for a while. ace king is a drawing hand, play it like one.

[/ QUOTE ]

So any non-pair is a "drawing hand" for you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is in levels 1+2 of a SNG. Can someone run the odds of any player at the table being dealt a pocket pair with 8,9 and 10 people left? Usually pocket pairs (no matter how low) will call your raise in 11s-33s, making AK a drawing hand. Later on the chance of someone having a pp are much lower with less people, so often AK will dominate opponents. It'd be interesting to see the stats on someone having a pp early on.

Your opponent doesn't know what you have, so sometimes you can get people away from their low pps with continuation bets (regardless if you pair up or not). This is assuming any pp calls you preflop, but it's been my experience that they will for most reasonable raises (5xbb or less in early levels).

[Voltron87]

ok, its usually much better to call than reraise when ak when its not push/fold, and in normal cash games, but not because its a drawing hand.

[Crispy86]

Interesting, and it makes me wonder. I went and checked my stats for the first two levels, and found that AKo is one of my absolute winningest hands (top 2) but AKs is break even at the first level, albeit with only 10 hands (well below the 40+ average of the others), and 6th in the second level. I'll take a look at the hands and see what's up.

Albert

[The Don]

Definitely agree.

[bjb23]

[ QUOTE ]
Call me crazy, but I usually just limp with AK in the early levels mainly because if i raise, some donk will push with 66 and I will lose. I play AK much like 33...if i hit my hand, i will hopefully double up. If I miss, i am done with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

so you would rather have the donk with 66 limp behind you to see a cheap flop and possibly spike a set? i know you play at the 1000 chip levels so you have more room for post flop play, but say the flop comes k high, do you often worry about some random bb two pair or a set if any aggression follows your flop raise??

by limping, do you extract more value from ak by someone limping behind with a weaker ace>? does this outweigh establishing your hand preflop, or do you simply and solely limp ak for the sake of not being pot committed to an overbet by a small pp behind you?

-bj

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]

But early in a sit and go if you are faced with a non steal raise and the blinds are low, please stop reraising with AK!! Just call and play the hand!!!! I really hate reraising with AK in some of the posts I've just read (like 3 in the last 15 minutes), so I'll just make a blanket statement.

Trust me it'll make your life much easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also play AK more weakly than many people here, but I still think that raising is often better than calling even against a non-steal raise. For example, if a few players have limped in EP and MP and the CO now puts in a moderate raise, an AK on the button has gotta raise or fold even if CO isn't one to make fancy moves. If he just calls, he's looking at playing a multiway pot from a bad relative position with a hand that'll rarely hit harder than 1 pair. A related situation is facing a small UTG raise with AK in UTG+1. Calling figures to encourage overcalls and create the same sort of unpleasant (for AK) situation - a multiway pot with bad relative position. If UTG is solid, I prefer folding in that spot unless I've seen that the rest of the table is quite tight. If he seems LAGgy (my basic assumption until proven otherwise), I will put in a pot re-raise on level 1 or just push on levels 2/3. Or say there are 5 or 6 limpers on level 2 and I have AKo in the big blind. If I check here, I'm basically giving up on the hand....unless I spike a miracle two pair+ flop, I'm just not gonna feel comfortable putting in lots of chips. So, I prefer to make a big raise. It's true that someone may well "know" I have AK and call me with a small pair, but that's ok. As long as they "know" I have nothing and call with me AQ and KJs often enough to make me about even money in the long run, I'm happy.

I don't understand the reluctance, common to this forum, about gambling early in the tournament. A player whose ROI would be 18% if he refused to gamble all his chips on a 50/50 on the first hand of every tournament figures to increase his hourly rate by over 20% if he chooses to accept that gamble, assuming he increases his equity by a factor of 1.9 when he doubles up.

I suppose you might argue that his normal ROI is as high as 18% largely because he tends to "wait for better spots" and get his chips in as a large favorite against the loosey-gooseys. This IMO is bull. With his fold-fold-fold strategy in the early going, he rarely has a chance to snag the looseys before they lose all their chips to someone else. Many times these loose players luck into big stacks and make all sorts of trouble for our Hero come bubble time with their wild&wacky calling standards. As long as Hero is a sufficiently winning player (gambling early isn't a good idea if your ROI is very small) and knows how to handle a big stack (i.e. he actually increases his equity by at least 1.9 when he doubles up), he does better taking a 50/50 on the first hand.

[MagnoliasFM]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't understand the reluctance, common to this forum, about gambling early in the tournament. A player whose ROI would be 18% if he refused to gamble all his chips on a 50/50 on the first hand of every tournament figures to increase his hourly rate by over 20% if he chooses to accept that gamble, assuming he increases his equity by a factor of 1.9 when he doubles up.

I suppose you might argue that his normal ROI is as high as 18% largely because he tends to "wait for better spots" and get his chips in as a large favorite against the loosey-gooseys. This IMO is bull. With his fold-fold-fold strategy in the early going, he rarely has a chance to snag the looseys before they lose all their chips to someone else. Many times these loose players luck into big stacks and make all sorts of trouble for our Hero come bubble time with their wild&wacky calling standards. As long as Hero is a sufficiently winning player (gambling early isn't a good idea if your ROI is very small) and knows how to handle a big stack (i.e. he actually increases his equity by at least 1.9 when he doubles up), he does better taking a 50/50 on the first hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Doubling up early is a huge advantage to a 2+2 player because it almost guarantees a smooth ride into the "push or fold" rounds where you have an enormous edge. If you don't take early gambles you have to start desperately pushing as soon as the blinds get to 50-100 and win a coinflip to double up. Why not gamble early instead when you get the better of it vs. worse players? They don't care about how high the blinds are...they'll call you with AJ etc.

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]

But early in a sit and go if you are faced with a non steal raise and the blinds are low, please stop reraising with AK!! Just call and play the hand!!!! I really hate reraising with AK in some of the posts I've just read (like 3 in the last 15 minutes), so I'll just make a blanket statement.

Trust me it'll make your life much easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

i had to learn this the hard way through experience. i'm glad i learned this in the $5.50s and $11s than at the $55s-$215s.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
btw everything is situational, Im basically talking about when the stacks are deep. In your situation where you say there is a raise to 90 and a call for 90, I would usually move allin if I had 800 chips, because the stacks aren't deep enough.

However if it's a raise to 45 and a call for 45, I would just flat call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly the way I feel. I made a more controversial statement earlier today in response to an AK post. IMO, some losing players on the lower levels overplay AK so badly (automatically continuation betting and building huge pots with nothing, especially against multiple opponents) that I would not be surprised if the average losing player at the 11s and 22s only played PPs in level 1, their ROI would improve. Or at the very least, only played AK one of two ways: all-in preflop or fold.

(I'm not suggesting that as a long term strategy, since every player should try to improve, but I honestly see people knock themselves out of tournaments so often at the 11s and 22s by butchering AK that I'd like to see a losing player take this approach just to see if it helps their results.)

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't understand the reluctance, common to this forum, about gambling early in the tournament. A player whose ROI would be 18% if he refused to gamble all his chips on a 50/50 on the first hand of every tournament figures to increase his hourly rate by over 20% if he chooses to accept that gamble, assuming he increases his equity by a factor of 1.9 when he doubles up.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with that reasoning is that you assume Hero won't have a chance to accumulate a lot of chips when he calls with AK instead of trying to get all the chips in preflop. That is simply not the case. AK should be a winning hand in level 1-2 when you include postflop play. And you definately won't lose your entire stack when the board doesn't help you at all.

When you take 50/50 situations in level one you don't even beat the wig. And that you can squeeze more of those situations in per hour just because you bust so often in 10th is backwards logic. Because all you accomplish is having to lean more on your other skills in the other SnGs you play to support your early gambling in the previous SnG.

A player that doesn't have a higher profit from entering level 2 in two SnGs with 800 (or 1000) chips compared to a single SnG with 1600 (or 2000) has some serious flaws in his game.

[curtains]

1 pair is usually enough in these sit and gos to get all your chips in, so you don't really have to worry about that.

[microbet]

The thing I'm a bit on the fence about with AK is continuation bets.

There are a lot of situations where it seems like a continuation bet seems to maybe work often enough, but maybe not.

[AceofSpades]

[ QUOTE ]
The thing I'm a bit on the fence about with AK is continuation bets.

There are a lot of situations where it seems like a continuation bet seems to maybe work often enough, but maybe not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I get into trouble with those too...Which is why I like
limp reraising AK all-in to a single raise (but folding to another person's reraise of the original raise) or open pushing into a field of limpers. Seems to work pretty well. But I'm happy to pick up 100-200 chips with AK.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah I get into trouble with those too...Which is why I like limp reraising AK all-in to a single raise (but folding to another person's reraise of the original raise) or open pushing into a field of limpers. Seems to work pretty well. But I'm happy to pick up 100-200 chips with AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that this is good, simple advice for the lower level players to follow. Especially if their post flop skills are poor, this is great advice.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]

The problem with that reasoning is that you assume Hero won't have a chance to accumulate a lot of chips when he calls with AK instead of trying to get all the chips in preflop. That is simply not the case. AK should be a winning hand in level 1-2 when you include postflop play. And you definately won't lose your entire stack when the board doesn't help you at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that in many situations flat-calling with AK is more +$EV. However, situations when flat-calling is dubious, like the two I outlined, crop up quite often.

[ QUOTE ]
When you take 50/50 situations in level one you don't even beat the wig. And that you can squeeze more of those situations in per hour just because you bust so often in 10th is backwards logic. Because all you accomplish is having to lean more on your other skills in the other SnGs you play to support your early gambling in the previous SnG.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see the flaw in my logic that you do. Say I play the $20s and make an average of $26 for every tournament I enter, for a net profit of $4/tournament. Now, say I can choose whether to take a 50/50 on the first hand of each tournament. If I don't, I expect to win $52 over 2 tournaments. My net profit will be $8 and my rate will be $4/tournament-hour.
If I do choose to take the flip, I will make $0 one out of every two times and a bit less than $52 the other time. Doubling up on the first hand probably doesn't quite double one's equity, but it's close. So say I make $26*1.9 when I win my coinflips. My total over two tournaments is then $49.40. My profit plummets to only $2.7/tournament, but my rate rises to $5.40/tournament hour.
Not only do I beat the vig, I gain ($1.40/tournament-hour)/tournament-hour.

[ QUOTE ]
A player that doesn't have a higher profit from entering level 2 in two SnGs with 800 (or 1000) chips compared to a single SnG with 1600 (or 2000) has some serious flaws in his game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, your ROI will go down quite a bit. But your hourly rate will increase, as shown above.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]

Sure, your ROI will go down quite a bit. But your hourly rate will increase, as shown above.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's where we differ. I don't think a player who busts out in 10th in half of the tournaments/and doubles up in level 1 half of the time is a winning player at all no matter how many new tourneys they start up in an hour.

Of course this is disguised by this situation not happening often enough to make a serious dent in an otherwise winning players ROI.

I don't want to discourage people from doing it of course. I would be delighted if a solid player takes a coinflip vs a donks PP in level 1 on a regular basis.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]

That's where we differ. I don't think a player who busts out in 10th in half of the tournaments/and doubles up in level 1 half of the time is a winning player at all no matter how many new tourneys they start up in an hour.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no logical reason why he can't be a winning player. I don't see why you would make such a claim.