A thoght on learning as it applies to poker, and a small stakes hand:

[bholdr]

They say (i don't know who 'they' are, but...) that when a person first begins to learn a new skill, they listen. when they have become a little more advanced, and if they are committed to learning, they participate- ask good questions, debate, argue with their teachers, etc. The highest levels of learning occur when the studnt becomes a teacher- by explainging and articualting complicated concepts to other learners, a person focuses and refines their own learning process.

how does this apply to poker? I find that i learn more be giving advice and debating that advice than i do by just asking for it. If you're a beginer (i've been playing pretty seriously for more than a year, but i still consider myself something of a beginner, at least compared to the real experts) it may help you more to comment on hands and debate plays that it would to just post hands and accept the advice from whoever responds- unfourtunatly, the advice given out on this site has been better in the past, which makes it all the more important to look at everything with a critical, discerning eye, especially in the micro and small stakes areas.


just a thought.


Here's a hand that i played last week, which may yeild some intresting discussion:

I was in the SB and was dealt 99 in a local 4/8 game

there were four limpers, including the button. i called, and the BB checked- leaving six players in a pot with 6 small bets in it.

The flop came down 2 6 7 rainbow (beautiful for my nines)

I checked, so did the BB and all the limpers, until the button, who bet. I raised. all fold to the button, who calls. there are now 2 players left in and 5 big bets in the pot (minus the rake and jackpot drop, so $36).

The turn started with the scary cards- a J fell, putting an overcard on board. I bet, the button called.

The river brought another overcard, a K- i checked, the button bet, and i called. the final board was 2 6 7 J K, the pot $68.

thoughts on all streets?

[OrianasDaad]

On the surface, I'd say that your play could not be faulted until the river. To see whether or not it could be faulted there, you have to do a little math, I think.

It's $8 into a $60 pot (after rake and drop if you call) so your odds are 60-8 or 7.5-1. If you are ahead here more than 11.75% of the time, then a call is correct.

Figuring whether you are ahead this percentage of the time is a mathematical exercise. Figuring what range of hands your opponent could have, given the play, and determining what % of those hands beat yours.

Knowing your opponent is very important, and since he was seated directly to your right, you should know the most about this opponent.

[SheridanCat]

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how does this apply to poker? I find that i learn more be giving advice and debating that advice than i do by just asking for it.


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I agree totally.

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I was in the SB and was dealt 99 in a local 4/8 game

there were four limpers, including the button. i called, and the BB checked- leaving six players in a pot with 6 small bets in it.


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Pretty standard, I think. If there were a couple more players a raise might be justifiable, but your play is fine given the number you have.

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The flop came down 2 6 7 rainbow (beautiful for my nines)

I checked, so did the BB and all the limpers, until the button, who bet. I raised. all fold to the button, who calls. there are now 2 players left in and 5 big bets in the pot (minus the rake and jackpot drop, so $36).


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Perfect checkraise spot, I think. You'll either narrow the field, as you did, or keep the field all stuck for an extra bet. Either way you're in good shape.

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The turn started with the scary cards- a J fell, putting an overcard on board. I bet, the button called.


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Looks good here. You showed strength with the checkraise, so betting out makes sense since you ahve some fold equity here. Also, you have to wonder what the button has. Would he just smoothcall with a jack here? It looks fishy. I'm starting to think he has overcards, like Q9, QT, KQ. Possibly he had top pair on the flop with A7. Maybe even top pair with a junky kicker, like Q7.

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The river brought another overcard, a K- i checked, the button bet, and i called. the final board was 2 6 7 J K, the pot $68.


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I just don't think that king helped him. I still put him on something like A7. In any event, the call is automatic getting 7.5:1, I think. If the button didn't have a K or J, he has to get points for follow-through on his bluff.

I hope I wasn't totally off the mark. The games I've been playing in lately, I think may have warped my ability to read hands. /images/graemlins/smile.gif I've been seeing some super crazy bluffing.

Regards,

T

[sean c]

Hi bholdr. This is an interesting hand.
Pre-flop. I like the call vs raise. We have the worst possible position (SB) and with the hand being so multi-way are most likely going to need to flop a set to win this hand. I am sure there are solid arguements for raising this pre flop but being completely out of position this hand could be very difficult to play post flop.

Flop- Barring a nine this is the best possible flop for our nines but our overpair is very vunerable and a bet does very little to protect our hand so we check with the intention of check raising a late position bet. There are a couple problems with checking this flop. It could get checked through and people who would have folded to a flop bet from us now have been given a free card. Another problem with checking is having an early position player bet and getting some cold callers behind him before the action is back to us. If this happens a flop check raise does not protect our hand it would actually create a pot where most players would have correct odds to chase weak draws so calling the flop bet may be best.

Turn- is standard I would bet any card here( maybe not an ace or seven).

River- This is the questionable street IMO. The question is do we bet for value thinking the button will call with a worse hand or check call hoping to induce a bluff from a missed draw baby pocket pair. I have an opinion on this but I would like to here your thoughts behind the check/call line on the river. This was live so I am sure you could give us a player read also.

[AASooted]

Pre-flop makes sense. You're out of position, and you're not going to fold any of the limpers by raising, but you definitely want to play 99 for half a SB -- especially with four players already in and only one more to act.

The flop was good for you. You have an overpair. It makes sense to check to see how everyone else likes their hand, and button betting is absolutely perfect because it allows you to raise and face everyone else with calling two bets. You get to play this heads-up, which is what you want since you didn't flop your set and you're very vulnerable to overcards. Button may have a hand, or he may just be betting to try to fold out some drawing hands. We can't really tell yet.

I like the turn bet. If you check, Button is going to bet because you look like you're afraid of the jack. You don't know if he has a hand or is just bluffing you. Since you bet, you get some information from him. If he raises, I'm folding in that situation.

The check on the river allows you to get to showdown for no more than one bet. Button hasn't shown that he's wild about his hand so far, so he may have been drawing or had a smaller pair. On the other hand, the king may have hit his hand or he might have made a pair of jacks on the turn.

Getting 7.5:1, I think you have to call once Button bets. There's no straight possible, and I assume no flush. You're probably good often enough to make the call profitable.

Looks good to me.

[OrianasDaad]

You can exclude some hands based on the play. You can assume also that he has at least one pair. Using a very liberal range of hands you are ahead about 59% of the time.

Using a slightly less liberal range, you are ahead about 50% of the time.

Using a very tight range of hands you are ahead about 32% of the time.

I guess it's an easy call.

Edit: In fact, if you consider every possible hand that beats yours a possibility, you only have to add a few hands that you beat for a call to be correct. Adding: 98, smaller pocket pairs, and A7 and A6 bring you up to winning about 16% of the time.

[bholdr]

Sheridan cat was right on with his analysis. the player had an ace and bluffed at the river, likely correctly putting me on a vulnerable pocket pair. I didn't know if he would bet at it or not, but i did know that i would call a bet. I would have benen happy to check it down, though.

this is actually one spot where a check-call was a very good play- not only could he ave a legit hand that i could beat, like A7, but given the way i played the hand, most 4/8 players will bet at that river.

Here's an intresating thought, though- if the flop bet came from an EP player and there were a couple of callers, would my raise still have been correct, or perhaps i would call and check-raise the turn if the card was favorible... if there were two or more callers and that J hit, i'd have to fold... luckily the isolation check-raise worked for me this time.

[SheridanCat]

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Sheridan cat was right on with his analysis. the player had an ace and bluffed at the river


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I think is a player to watch out for. He's pretty aware and willing to follow through.

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this is actually one spot where a check-call was a very good play


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Agreed. I really want to show this down, but I'm not wanting to pay two bets to do it. If it checks down fine, but I'd call a single bet. Two bets hurts my pot odds, so I better be sure he's bluffing.

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Here's an intresating thought, though- if the flop bet came from an EP player and there were a couple of callers, would my raise still have been correct, or perhaps i would call and check-raise the turn if the card was favorible... if there were two or more callers and that J hit, i'd have to fold... luckily the isolation check-raise worked for me this time.

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I think the raise is still good, but it's a value raise in that case. Of course, you're then hoping for low cards. An over card on the board with so many players would be disaster for your pair, as you mention.

Regards,

T

[TaoTe]

[ QUOTE ]
They say (i don't know who 'they' are, but...) that when a person first begins to learn a new skill, they listen. when they have become a little more advanced, and if they are committed to learning, they participate- ask good questions, debate, argue with their teachers, etc. The highest levels of learning occur when the studnt becomes a teacher- by explainging and articualting complicated concepts to other learners, a person focuses and refines their own learning process.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed, who are "they"? We shall find them one day and cut off their balls for having dwelt in secrecy for so long.

I like the idea of the introspective look at poker or the poker player because so much of the game has to do with one's self.


[ QUOTE ]
Here's a hand that i played last week, which may yeild some intresting discussion:

I was in the SB and was dealt 99 in a local 4/8 game

there were four limpers, including the button. i called, and the BB checked- leaving six players in a pot with 6 small bets in it.

The flop came down 2 6 7 rainbow (beautiful for my nines)

I checked, so did the BB and all the limpers, until the button, who bet. I raised. all fold to the button, who calls. there are now 2 players left in and 5 big bets in the pot (minus the rake and jackpot drop, so $36).

The turn started with the scary cards- a J fell, putting an overcard on board. I bet, the button called.

The river brought another overcard, a K- i checked, the button bet, and i called. the final board was 2 6 7 J K, the pot $68.

thoughts on all streets?

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I don't think a J qualifies as a scare card. What hands could they that would have a jack in it and would have them lead at the pot? A really scary card would be a ten, putting a three straight on board and an overcard. Did you have some read on your opponent that would make you think he had a J or K in his hand? Just interested in what read you had and what hand that player could make with those cards? If he held AK then why no preflop rasie? KQ or KJ seems closer to what he could hold, given that he led at the river he probably expects you to pay off his KJ with a worse hand.

[As Zehn]

I don't understand why you wouldn't want to raise preflop. The hand isn't that strong that you want to see 6 opponents and if you hit your set you would want the pot as big as possible to keep the drawing hands interested.

[littlebu]

I would just call preflop. With that many callers there's a good chance that there's over cards out there. Also there's a good chance that they will not fold to a preflop raise as it is still "cheap". Then if overcards come on the flop your hand shrinks in your eyes and will probably lead to a folding situation. If that happens you would have caused yourself to spend an extra bet that did nothing for your odds of winning. That's how I see it and could quite possibly be way of base as I am usually seem to be

[SheridanCat]

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I don't understand why you wouldn't want to raise preflop. The hand isn't that strong that you want to see 6 opponents and if you hit your set you would want the pot as big as possible to keep the drawing hands interested.

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There's no way anyone is going to fold for one more small bet unless this is the most abnormal 4/8 in the world. You're going to have 5 opponents no matter what usually.

So, if you raise and hit your set people are going to be suspicious if you bet out but if you check it's very likely it'll check around being as you showed plenty of aggression from the SB.

If you just call and hit your set you can sit back and trap. They won't suspect you of a big hand. You can bet out and get callers or check and let someone else bet for you.

I think the implied odds are better for the preflop call than the raise.

Regards,

T