Where do I get away from this? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Insty

07-18-2005, 02:10 PM

Second hand of the tournament.
I was probably a little too agressive here. Is there a point where I should get away from this?

Party Poker $20+2 No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed)

SB (t785)
BB (t800)
UTG (t645)
UTG+1 (t980)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t800)
Hero (t800)
Button (t790)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
4 folds, MP2 calls t15, 1 fold, Hero raises to t150, 1 fold, SB calls t140, 1 fold, MP2 calls t135.

Flop: (t462.50) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets t175, SB folds, MP2 calls t175.

Turn: (t812.50) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero pushes all-In t475, MP2 calls all-In t475

River: (t812.50) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: t812.50

adanthar

07-18-2005, 02:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is there a point where I should get away from this?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero (t800)
Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
4 folds, MP2 calls t15, 1 fold, Hero raises to t150

[/ QUOTE ]

You could raise less than 20% of your stack here

[ QUOTE ]
1 fold, SB calls t140, 1 fold, MP2 calls t135.

Flop: (t462.50) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets t175

[/ QUOTE ]

You could refrain from betting (a weak bet no less) into 2 people on a flop that missed you here

[ QUOTE ]
, SB folds, MP2 calls t175.

Turn: (t812.50) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero pushes all-In t475

[/ QUOTE ]

You could stop bluffing with A high here

Ixnert

07-18-2005, 02:24 PM

As Adanthar said, the preflop bet is way too big for level 1. Try 75, you're not narrowing things much (any) more with a 150 bet.

After that, your continuation on the flop isn't as big (or, alternately, is just as big but is a larger fraction of the pot). But once you get called on the flop, you need to stop throwing money at the pot. There are no discernable draws out there (this is a 22, so I suppose you might see A2, but I doubt it), so you've got to assume that they hit something.

Check behind on the turn, fold to anything but a tiny bet on the river unless you hit it.

sahala

07-18-2005, 02:30 PM

If he called 175 on the flop it's hard to imagine he'd fold it to what is essentially a blank on the turn. He probably has KQ AQ QJ. The preflop raise seems a little high at 10x the BB.

45suited

07-18-2005, 02:35 PM

I am not calling you a losing player, but I've often thought about this: Would the average losing player on the lower levels see their ROI increase if they never played any hand other than PPs on level 1?

IMO, spewing chips with AK and AQ on level by misplaying them causes more harm than just folding them pre-flop for a large number of players on the 11s.

Not recommending this (primarily because everyone should be trying to improve) but I don't think the idea can be dismissed out of hand either.

durron597

07-18-2005, 02:37 PM

If you want to be aggressive, how about this: (checking behind on the flop is also a good line since the pot is multiway).

Party Poker $20+2 No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed)

SB (t785)
BB (t800)
UTG (t645)
UTG+1 (t980)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t800)
Hero (t800)
Button (t790)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
4 folds, MP2 calls t15, 1 fold, Hero raises to t100, 1 fold, SB calls t90, 1 fold, MP2 calls t85.

Flop: (t300) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets t150, SB folds, MP2 calls t150.

Turn: (t600) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (t600) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
MP2 bets 550 (all-in), Hero folds.

Final Pot: t1250

morgan180

07-18-2005, 02:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is there a point where I should get away from this?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero (t800)
Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
4 folds, MP2 calls t15, 1 fold, Hero raises to t150

[/ QUOTE ]

You could raise less than 20% of your stack here

[ QUOTE ]
1 fold, SB calls t140, 1 fold, MP2 calls t135.

Flop: (t462.50) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets t175

[/ QUOTE ]

You could refrain from betting (a weak bet no less) into 2 people on a flop that missed you here

[ QUOTE ]
, SB folds, MP2 calls t175.

Turn: (t812.50) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero pushes all-In t475

[/ QUOTE ]

You could stop bluffing with A high here

[/ QUOTE ]

45suited

07-18-2005, 02:39 PM

Durron, you don't think that raising to 100 is a bit of overkill? What's wrong with just raising to 60 or 70 or so and keeping the pot size under control and playing the hand with position?

durron597

07-18-2005, 02:41 PM

No way. I want the garbage to fold so I know that I'm only getting called by medium PPs or hands I dominate.

I'm calling a t60 bet with T9s, 33, etc., so I raise enough where it's not correct to call with those hands to try to stack AK.

45suited

07-18-2005, 02:46 PM

Problem is, the 2/3 of the time you miss the flop, those medium PPs will tend to call your (bigger because of the larger PF raise) continuation bet that everyone loves to automatically throw out there. Then you're stuck with ace high in a pot whose size is getting out of control. People on the lower levels love to play pocket 5s like they're aces sometimes, especially since alot of people see your big raise and automatically assume you have AK.

Just personal preference I guess. Not saying my way is better. I just play AK very carefully on level 1. Maintain FE for bubble play since the average donkey on the lower levels is completely lost at bubble time.

durron597

07-18-2005, 02:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
especially since alot of people see your big raise and automatically assume you have AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

I raise that big with AQ and AJ and TT in this spot too.

That said, I tried to answer Villians question with "aggressiveness" in mind, since that's how he wanted to play. I almost always check behind on a Q high flop into two opponents with AK.

45suited

07-18-2005, 02:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I raise that big with AQ and AJ and TT in this spot too

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd raise to 100 with AJ on level 1?

We have very different styles... I would fold AJ after one limper on level 1

durron597

07-18-2005, 02:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]

You'd raise to 100 with AJ in the CO on level 1?

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

Yes. I'm all about playing hands for position. I probably wouldn't raise it that much in a higher buyin game where I'm almost certainly only called by hands that dominate me.

PapiChulo503

07-18-2005, 03:03 PM

Preflop-
BigBlind is only 15, your bet of 150 is a bit much. Im thinking something like 50-75 is good.

Flop-
The continuation bet is not a bad idea but I think that its a bit small. If you dont think anyone has hit the queen you want to represent the Q, I would have bet out about 3\4 the pot. If you get called you know someone hit something and you can continue accordingly.

Insty

07-19-2005, 08:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
As Adanthar said, the preflop bet is way too big for level 1. Try 75, you're not narrowing things much (any) more with a 150 bet.

After that, your continuation on the flop isn't as big (or, alternately, is just as big but is a larger fraction of the pot). But once you get called on the flop, you need to stop throwing money at the pot. There are no discernable draws out there (this is a 22, so I suppose you might see A2, but I doubt it), so you've got to assume that they hit something.

Check behind on the turn, fold to anything but a tiny bet on the river unless you hit it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This all sounds sensible in the cold light of day.

My preflop raise was definitely too big, and I think this married me to the pot. If I'd put in a smaller raise I could have gotten away from it.

For anyone who was theorising about what the villain had here, the monkey had the monster trapping hand 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif With which he called a huge preflop raise, and called down for all his stack with a pair of 4's.

I guess it was soooooted.

45suited

07-19-2005, 08:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
For anyone who was theorising about what the villain had here, the monkey had the monster trapping hand 7, 4 With which he called a huge preflop raise, and called down for all his stack with a pair of 4's.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I keep saying about the donkeys at the lower buy-ins. Don't be surprised when they do call you down with their low to mid PP or if they pair up with any piece of the flop. These players get a huge charge out of making a "great read" by putting you on AK and calling down. Yet people continue to bluff these donkeys at the low buy-ins rather than betting for value against them when they have made hands. I don't get it.

Hands like this (which you see all the time at 22s and below) also make me wonder why everyone falls in love with AK, but so many people are afraid to raise in EP with JJ. If your opponents will call you down with a wide range of hands, wouldn't you rather have JJ? Especially since even the donkeys will shut down once the A hits?

YourFoxyGrandma

07-19-2005, 08:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It would be a large mistake to call a t60 bet with T9s, 33, etc., so I raise to t60 where it's not correct to call with those hands to try to stack AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

grandgnu

07-19-2005, 08:43 AM

You have position, I'd raise to between 75-100 at that point, no one folds for 50.

If it's checked to you on the flop at that point, I'd fire out 1/2 to 3/4 of the current pot. If I get called, I'll likely slow down.

With him calling with 7/4 sooted out of position, you know he's a donk, especially going all-in against you. He doesn't read you for A/K at all, he just sees "wow, I hit my 4, I've got a pair, I ain't folding now!"

This is how many of them think, which can be great for you. I limped with A/J of diamonds from EP early in a tourney. Bunch of limpers and the flop is 9/10/A with two hearts. I fire out a 70 bet and get called by two players, some donk with 4/5 of hearts pushes all-in for 800. I call him and everyone folds, my Aces hold up and I become chip leader with 1800.

bubble time is always fun, had guys laying down to my all-in to 810 chips when they already had 600 in the big blind, hilarious!

45suited

07-19-2005, 08:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You have position, I'd raise to between 75-100 at that point, no one folds for 50.

If it's checked to you on the flop at that point, I'd fire out 1/2 to 3/4 of the current pot. If I get called, I'll likely slow down.

With him calling with 7/4 sooted out of position, you know he's a donk, especially going all-in against you. He doesn't read you for A/K at all, he just sees "wow, I hit my 4, I've got a pair, I ain't folding now!"

This is how many of them think, which can be great for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does it surprise you to run into donks at this level? This is what you should expect. So, value bet your made hands as opposed to bluffing with ace high. (No, I'm not calling AK strictly a drawing hand, but it has much more value with high blinds than with low blinds.) Your line, raising to 75-100, continuation betting with 1/2 to 3/4 pot flop bet, is not necessarily bad in general, but why do this against donks? So often, it just amounts to chip spewing, especially if you try this against more than one opponent. If their play is this bad here, imagine what you can do if you get to the bubble with FE. Or if you get a made hand and can value bet against them. I just don't like making big pots and bluffing bad players with ace high. It's so unnecessary.

grandgnu

07-19-2005, 08:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have position, I'd raise to between 75-100 at that point, no one folds for 50.

If it's checked to you on the flop at that point, I'd fire out 1/2 to 3/4 of the current pot. If I get called, I'll likely slow down.

With him calling with 7/4 sooted out of position, you know he's a donk, especially going all-in against you. He doesn't read you for A/K at all, he just sees "wow, I hit my 4, I've got a pair, I ain't folding now!"

This is how many of them think, which can be great for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does it surprise you to run into donks at this level? This is what you should expect. So, value bet your made hands as opposed to bluffing with ace high. (No, I'm not calling AK strictly a drawing hand, but it has much more value with high blinds than with low blinds.) Your line, raising to 75-100, continuation betting with 1/2 to 3/4 pot flop bet, is not necessarily bad in general, but why do this against donks? So often, it just amounts to chip spewing, especially if you try this against more than one opponent. If their play is this bad here, imagine what you can do if you get to the bubble with FE. Or if you get a made hand and can value bet against them. I just don't like making big pots and bluffing bad players with ace high. It's so unnecessary.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem here is that we don't know he's a bad player. We can assume most of our opponents will be bad players. Perhaps not THIS bad, but bad in general.

I stand by my position. Let's say you start with 800 chips and blinds at 10/15.

You raise to 75 and get the two callers. You have 725 left and the pot is 225.

It's checked to you on the flop, fire out a bet of 125, leaving you with 600 chips. You may pick up the pot right here, as both opponents have checked and not shown any strength.

Now the small blind calls. The pot is now 475 and you have 600 chips remaining. The turn doesn't help either of you, he checks, you check and take the free card off. He could have A/Q for all you know, or J/Q or whatever. It will probably get checked on the river and you'll see the bad news but still have 600 chips left and be in good shape to continue. And you'll have some valuable information on this opponent.

45suited

07-19-2005, 09:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The problem here is that we don't know he's a bad player. We can assume most of our opponents will be bad players. Perhaps not THIS bad, but bad in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a 22. I'll assume he's bad until proven otherwise.

As for the rest of your post, I guess it's just a matter of personal preference. Thing is, you know that you're really not surprised that the villain in this hand didn't even have top pair, are you? I'm not either.

wildzer0

07-19-2005, 09:16 AM

I raise a bit less preflop here, usually 75 will do it. Then bet a full 1/2-3/4 the pot on a missed flop - your flop bet smacks of weakness. If I have callers after that, I shut down unless I improve.

USCSigma1097

07-19-2005, 09:23 AM

In HOH2 Dan says to not fire a continuation bet into the flop with two or more opponents unless your positive they don't have a hand or you have picked up a big draw. Your hand has no draw, and you have two opponents. I check the flop and fold the turn or riv unimproved. Remember, if you are going to see a showdown with ace high, get there as cheaply as possible. It's still early enough in the tourney to pick a better spot.

Finally, remember that you have about as good of a chance bluffing a party poker player off of a pot as I do of getting laid at work today

Sigma

durron597

07-19-2005, 09:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It would be a large mistake to call a t60 bet with T9s, 33, etc., so I raise to t60 where it's not correct to call with those hands to try to stack AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

You're supposed to type "FYP" when you do that. And I've made a lot of money calling a t60 raise with 33 and flopping a set.

grandgnu

07-19-2005, 09:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The problem here is that we don't know he's a bad player. We can assume most of our opponents will be bad players. Perhaps not THIS bad, but bad in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a 22. I'll assume he's bad until proven otherwise.

As for the rest of your post, I guess it's just a matter of personal preference. Thing is, you know that you're really not surprised that the villain in this hand didn't even have top pair, are you? I'm not either.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing is, if you do assume correctly that your opponents are bad, then you should also be able to assume that they will be unbluffable, and calling off your entire stack with no pair and no draw is pointless and self-defeating.

He'll pay you off when the time is right, the time is not right at this point.

45suited

07-19-2005, 09:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The thing is, if you do assume correctly that your opponents are bad, then you should also be able to assume that they will be unbluffable, and calling off your entire stack with no pair and no draw is pointless and self-defeating.

He'll pay you off when the time is right, the time is not right at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm... yeah, that's what I was saying.

That was my whole point behind not building a big pot with ace high by continuation betting (and by not raising so much pre-flop). I certainly wouldn't have called the push either. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

grandgnu

07-19-2005, 10:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The thing is, if you do assume correctly that your opponents are bad, then you should also be able to assume that they will be unbluffable, and calling off your entire stack with no pair and no draw is pointless and self-defeating.

He'll pay you off when the time is right, the time is not right at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm... yeah, that's what I was saying.

That was my whole point behind not building a big pot with ace high by continuation betting (and by not raising so much pre-flop). I certainly wouldn't have called the push either. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree about not calling the push. I think a pre-flop raise is definetely called for, especially from position. When the flop falls and both players check to you, I would not just check. I have position and they haven't shown any strength on this flop. I'm going to take a stab at it and bet 125 to possibly take down the 225 uncontested. No point in allowing your opponents to see a free turn (unless you flopped a monster, like a set, and are trapping)

If you get called, then you slow down and you haven't risked too much where you're pot-committed. In addition, you still have control over the situation and your opponent is still out of position, allowing you to reach the river for free (possibly)

I've taken down many pots with a continuation bet on a flop from position, regardless of whether I hit something or not. They may assume I have a pocket pair, or I hit the top pair. They may have a smaller pair and there's two overcards, making it difficult for them to continue, etc.

I certainly don't advocate humungous overbets with no hand, but reasonable bets from position that might win you the pot right there, and don't pot commit you either.

45suited

07-19-2005, 10:16 AM

Okay, my last post on this since I have to go to work...

I didn't say not to raise preflop. Your OP said to raise to 75-100. Others have taken this line too. I'm saying that especially after just one limper, raising this much is overkill. Especially 100! You have position and a decent hand. Why raise to 100? Make a raise to 60, keep the pot manageable, play it with position.

Then, if you must continuation bet (which I generally do not do, but whatever) you could even make your same C bet of 120 or whatever and it would appear stronger because it would be a larger % of the pot.

I wouldn't do this, but in that scenario, your C bet would have a better chance of working. Anyway, I never said not to raise pre-flop, just not so much. Keep the pot small until you have something, then let the calling station donkeys pay you off. (Or put better, don't try to bluff bad players. Simple.)

Okay, off to work! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

grandgnu

07-19-2005, 10:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, my last post on this since I have to go to work...

I didn't say not to raise preflop. Your OP said to raise to 75-100. Others have taken this line too. I'm saying that especially after just one limper, raising this much is overkill. Especially 100! You have position and a decent hand. Why raise to 100? Make a raise to 60, keep the pot manageable, play it with position.

Then, if you must continuation bet (which I generally do not do, but whatever) you could even make your same C bet of 120 or whatever and it would appear stronger because it would be a larger % of the pot.

I wouldn't do this, but in that scenario, your C bet would have a better chance of working. Anyway, I never said not to raise pre-flop, just not so much. Keep the pot small until you have something, then let the calling station donkeys pay you off. (Or put better, don't try to bluff bad players. Simple.)

Okay, off to work! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I see what you're saying. I typically recommend a 3-5x the BB raise. But in the early levels of these tournies, it's difficult to push people out who might be sticking around with 4/7 sooted, J/10, etc. Various drawing hands, by only raising to 50 or 60. That's why I typically recommend a raise to 75 or 100 at that point.

Later on I'll make standard 3-5x the BB raises, and as blinds increase greatly I might get away with a 2.5x the BB raise to push someone out and steal the blinds.

YourFoxyGrandma

07-19-2005, 11:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It would be a large mistake to call a t60 bet with T9s, 33, etc., so I raise to t60 where it's not correct to call with those hands to try to stack AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

You're supposed to type "FYP" when you do that. And I've made a lot of money calling a t60 raise with 33 and flopping a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do what I want. Also, assuming you're only playing for set value, you need to win 720 chips every time you hit just to break even. I hope you're doing that.

durron597

07-19-2005, 11:10 AM

7.5 * 60 = 450???

YourFoxyGrandma

07-19-2005, 11:27 AM

You have a 11.5% chance of flopping a set.

gildwulf

07-19-2005, 11:37 AM

Here's a revised version of this hand that gives you the option to fold and makes it less likely for your opponent to stay in (smaller pot):

SB (t785)
BB (t800)
UTG (t645)
UTG+1 (t980)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t800)
Hero (t800)
Button (t790)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K, A.
4 folds, MP2 calls t15, 1 fold, Hero raises to t60, 1 fold, SB calls t60, 1 fold, MP2 calls t60.

Flop: (t180) Q, 4, 3 (3 players)
SB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets t125 , SB folds, MP2 calls t125.

Turn: (t430) 8 (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero CHECKS/FOLDS, MP2...

You have 640 chips left in this situation and none in yours. Both situations you made a preflop raise and a continuation bet. This situation is much better.