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MMMMMM
07-18-2005, 10:48 AM
I'm not going to argue about this anymore. But if she (an educated, liberal, Canadian Muslim), can admit it and question it, why can't you?


"Sunday, Jul. 17, 2005
When Denial Can Kill
We Muslims must admit that our religion might be motivating the bombers
By IRSHAD MANJI

I was surprised last week to learn how easily some Westerners believe terrorism can be explained. The realization unfolded as I looked into the sad face of a student at Oxford University. After giving a speech about Islam, I met this young magazine editor to talk about Islam's lost tradition of critical thinking and reasoned debate. But we never got to that topic. Instead, we got stuck on the July 7 bombings in London and what might have compelled four young, British-raised, observant Muslim men to blow themselves up while taking innocent others with them.

She emphasized their "relative economic deprivation." I answered that the lads had immigrant parents who had worked hard to make something of themselves. I reminded her that several of the 9/11 hijackers came from wealthy families, and it's not as if they left the boys out of the will. Finally, I told her about my conversation three years ago with the political leader of Islamic Jihad in Gaza. "What's the difference between suicide, which the Koran condemns, and martyrdom?" I asked. "Suicide," he replied, "is done out of despair. But remember: most of our martyrs today were very successful in their earthly lives." In short, there was a future to live for--and they detonated it anyway.

By this time, the Oxford student had grown somber. It was clear I had let her down. I had failed to appreciate that the London bombers were victims of British society. To be fair to her, she is right that marginalization, real or perceived, diminishes self-esteem. Which, in turn, can make young people vulnerable to those peddling a radical message of instant belonging. But suppose the messages being peddled are marinated in religious rhetoric. Then wouldn't you say religion plays some role in motivating these atrocities?

The student shifted uncomfortably. She just couldn't bring herself to examine my suggestion seriously. And I suppose I couldn't expect her to. Not when Muslim leaders themselves won't go there. Iqbal Sacranie, secretary-general for the Muslim Council of Britain, is an example. In the midst of a debate with me, he listed potential incentives to bomb, including "alienation" and "segregation." But Islam? God forbid that the possibility even be entertained.

That is the dangerous denial from which mainstream Muslims need to emerge. While our spokesmen assure us that Islam is an innocent bystander in today's terrorism, those who commit terrorist acts often tell us otherwise. Mohammed Atta, ringleader of the Sept. 11 hijackers, left behind a note asserting that "it is enough for us to know that the Koran's verses are the words of the Creator of the Earth and all the planets." Atta highlighted the Koran's description of heaven. In 2004 the executioners of Nick Berg, an American contractor in Iraq, alluded on tape to a different Koranic passage: "Whoever kills a human being, except as punishment for murder or other villainy in the land, shall be regarded as having killed all mankind." The spirit of that verse forbids aggressive warfare, but the clause beginning with except is readily deployed by militant Muslims as a loophole. If you want murder and villainy in the land, they say, look no further than U.S. bootprints in Arab soil.

For too long, we Muslims have been sticking fingers in our ears and chanting "Islam means peace" to drown out the negative noise from our holy book. Far better to own up to it. Not erase or revise, just recognize it and thereby join moderate Jews and Christians in confessing "sins of Scripture," as an American bishop says about the Bible. In doing so, Muslims would show a thoughtful side that builds trust with the wider communities of the West.

We could then cultivate the support to inspire cross-cultural understanding. For instance, schools throughout the West should teach how Islamic civilization helped give birth to the European Renaissance. Some of the first universities in recorded history sprang up in 3rd century Iran, 9th century Baghdad and 10th century Cairo. The Muslim world gave us mocha coffee, the guitar and even the Spanish expression olé! (which has its root in the Arabic word Allah). Muslim students would learn there is no shame in defending the values of pluralism. Non-Muslim students would learn that those values took great inspiration from Islamic culture. All would learn that Islam and the West are more interdependent than divided.

Still, as long as Muslims live in pretense, we will be affirming that we have something to hide. It's not enough for us to protest that radicals are exploiting Islam as a sword. Of course they are. Now, moderate Muslims must stop exploiting Islam as a shield--one that protects us from authentic introspection and our neighbors from genuine understanding."

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,1083918,00.html

ACPlayer
07-18-2005, 10:53 AM
Salaam.

You however continue to miss the point.

Edit:
If you dont want to argue about it. Please dont post about it. See easy. You can always post about something else.

Shalom

MMMMMM
07-18-2005, 11:03 AM
So, we won't debate the issue itself, but please answer my question, because it relates to your sometimes discussional approach on other topics as well:

If she can admit that it should be questioned, WHY CAN'T YOU?

Do you ALWAYS put your fingers in your ears in order to not hear what you don't want to hear, so you won't have to think about what you don't want to think about?

That is, sorry to say, the most intellectually shameful activity in the world. And regardless of you views on THIS particular subject, you should realize what you are doing at times.

It is also why I have problems at times discussing things with you and certain others. It is a major cause of frustration for me. Neither party should just SHUT OUT points or possibilities.

Peace to you, too... and please try to learn not to shut out that which you don't want to think about. That is an utterly unscientific approach, and extremely unconducive to genuine discussion with others--and to truth-seeking.

ACPlayer
07-18-2005, 11:14 AM
Can we get off the moralizing for a bit. Or does that just come naturally to the tilted 6M? From where I sit, you want us to simple accept your analysis on faith as an edict from god (supplemented by links to opinions of the likeminded). You ability to follow a line of thinking other than your own is truly astounding.

If you have followed what I have said in the past, I will repeat again:

1. All religious people should question their religion as religions by their nature can be twisted to meet the ends of the political. The discussion of catholics in the SMP is an example.
2. Extremist muslims twist their faith to motivate the young men to commit horrific acts.
3. I dont defend Islam.
4. I simply point out that Islam is not the cause of terrorism. It is a tool in the hands of the manipulators, like the backpack is the tool in the hands of the bombers.
5. Making Islam the cause of terrorism, or even denigrating or attacking Islam will cause moderates to react by bringout their self defense reactions.
6. Making Islam the cause of terrorism then leads to reactions, as some in this forum suggest as did Friedman in an article, that the problem should be addressed by moderate muslims.
7. I advocate, that WE examaine, what WE can do to make our lives safer by concentrating on policy and fixing it, rather than waiting for others to fix it.
8. We cannot solve this problem with force or policing.

So, if you want to have an argument with people who think just like you, go and talk to people who think just like you. Then you all can have a nice feel good conversation,call it a hearty debate and go back to the unfinished pizza.

SheetWise
07-18-2005, 11:26 AM
[ QUOTE ]
8. We cannot solve this problem with force or policing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo. Found the fatal flaw.

MMMMMM
07-18-2005, 11:37 AM
Look, I am not saying Islam is THE cause of terrorism. I am saying I think it is ONE CAUSE AMONGST MANY.

But you just flat rule that out, despite the contrary public statements of imams, terrorists, and now a very educated liberal Canadian Muslim woman.

I wouldn't mind discussing but you are being TOTALLY CLOSE-MINDED to the point of not even ALLOWING THAT AS A POSSIBILITY.

You have taken other totally close-minded tacks on occasion in the past.

I'm trying to point out that, regardless of the issue, that is an approach that is intellectually flawed--and not conducive to good discussion or debate.

This particular instance is just one case in point.

How do you manage to assert as FACT your opinion on this, which flies in the face of many expert opinions?

I'm NOT saying you should agree with me that Islam is a significant cause of terrorism. I'm not even saying you should take as fact that those particular Muslim experts are right and you are wrong. I'm just saying you should allow it as a POSSIBILITY.

Why can't you do that?

Also, can you imagine how frustrating it can be to discuss or debate with one so close-minded on certain things?

There is very little I won't allow as a POSSIBILITY for views that oppose mine--especially when numerous experts contradict my opinion. But you seem entirely impervious to such considerations, which makes your discussion/debate style highly flawed and unfair.

It is as if you have an IQ of 140, yet at times simply refuse to acknowledge possibilities other than your first conclusions. On the occasions you do that, it is like you are dropping your own effective IQ to 70, regarding the matter at hand. By your own choice, no less.

Sometimes cement heads are thick because they can't help it, naturally. That is not you. Other times they simply choose to be thick on occasion. That is you. And it is a habit that harms both you and any discussion you are trying to have with someone.

May you realize this in introspection and occasionally strive to improve upon it. And may you be less quick to TOTALLY DISREGARD contrary expert opinion from multiple sources in the future--on any subject. (Mainly for your benefit.)

superleeds
07-18-2005, 12:01 PM
[ QUOTE ]
But if she (an educated, liberal, Canadian Muslim), can admit it and question it, why can't you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your making her a liberal why?

I can't speak for others but I think all religion can (and has always been) twisted and perverted to excuse anything done in its name. I agree with her on this. I question responses to fundamentalism not that there are people who want me dead because i'm an infidel.

MMMMMM
07-18-2005, 12:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Your making her a liberal why?

[/ QUOTE ]

My impression is that she is a Western Muslim, interested in women's rights, educated, young, progressive, lesbian (and she produced and hosted "Queer Television" on Toronto's CityTV), politically interested and active, optimistic, concerned, cheerful.

I once watched her on TV discussing Islam on stage, and she referenced Chomsky at one point, then later asked if it might be possible for Islam to be reformed or saved.

Overall, I have a very positive (though limited) impression of her.

A quote about Irshad:

Andrew Sullivan, journalist who reviewed Irshad’s book for the New York Times and concluded: “If we survive this current war without unthinkable casualties, it will be because Irshad Manji’s kind of liberalism didn’t lose its nerve.”

Here, on her web page:

http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/aboutirshad.html

superleeds
07-18-2005, 12:35 PM
She's not a liberal as far as I'm concerned. But then I doubt that surprises you /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Andrew Sullivan

[/ QUOTE ]

C'mon, I know you can do better than that /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

MMMMMM
07-18-2005, 02:14 PM
I don't know anything about Andrew Sullivan, Superleeds; but if Irshad Manji is not liberal compared to you, just where on the spectrum are you...left of Chomsky, maybe? ;-)

mackthefork
07-18-2005, 05:02 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not going to argue about this anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why the hell not? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif Damn it I think the %&*$ers really got us boxed in with this one, I meant where do I find an article or source that beats this one?

Have a good one Mack

PS I'm in a good mood today, because I won my way into WCOOP event 4. /images/graemlins/cool.gif (Sorry for the poker content)

MMMMMM
07-18-2005, 06:02 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not going to argue about this anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why the hell not? Damn it I think the %&*$ers really got us boxed in with this one, I meant where do I find an article or source that beats this one?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I'll let Irshad argue this one for me from here on out;-)


[ QUOTE ]
Have a good one Mack

PS I'm in a good mood today, because I won my way into WCOOP event 4. (Sorry for the poker content)
I think I'll let Irshad argue this one for me from here on out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad to hear it, Mack.

ACPlayer
07-18-2005, 08:04 PM
I have never said that it is not a possibility as a cause.

I have said that it contribues to the terrorist just as much the backpack contributes as a cause.

I have said and will repeat that in analyzing terrorism causes, IMO, it is if at all an insignificant issue. I have agreed that it is a significant contributor in motivating the bombers. But if this was a Christian society they would find the justification somewhere -- in the bible or elsewhere. After all the Jews found justification for their terrorism in the old testament, the crusaders found it in the bible, the hindus find it in whatever they find in their religion. Essentially religions suck.

Is it a significant contributor worthy of discussion, that is a flat NO. Mostly because if it was not Islam they would find another motivator to strike back at the problems they face and the persecution they perceive.

Perhaps you can get it past your Islam hatred that even if it is ONE CAUSE AMONGST MANY, it is insignificant to our problem at hand. It is something we can do very little about. It is really not worth discussing in the context of terrorism.

Regarding your frustrations, that is really your problem. For a supposedly intellignet guy, why do you insist on taking on yourself the task of changing peoples mind. Just present your case, listen to what others are saying and if needed adjust. That is all I do. I dont want to convince you of anything, it will not make my day better.

MMMMMM
07-18-2005, 08:43 PM
I think it's fine if you assert that it is an insignificant cause.

I don't think it's fine (intellectually speaking) if you assert that your probability of being right in that assertion is 100% (when faced with contrary opinions from many experts who are far more knowledgeable on the subject than you).

Therefore I don't think it is fine (intellectually speaking) if you flatly disregard all those contrary expert opinions.

Of course you have the right to run your own mind any way you wish.

I'm just doing you a favor to point all this out, just as someone would be doing you a favor if they pointed out that you had bad breath at the poker table.

Why does this bother me enough to point it out? Because it is at times like arguing with a brick wall. And because I know you are smart enough to realize this flaw and improve upon it (ultimately far more to your benefit than mine). And because I find illogic strangely offensive, in the sense that it is in conflict with the way the universe is ordered. An illogical human mind is committing an offense of sorts against the universe (and it is something I too am guilty of on more than a few occasions). It is an offense against nature because we as humans have the power to correct it in ourselves.

It's one thing to be convinced of something. It's entirely another thing to deliberately and persistently ignore any and all contrary evidence that might come to your attention.

You can do better; I have faith in you.

ACPlayer
07-18-2005, 08:48 PM
Have you considered the possibility that I understand the POV of these "experts" but having considered it believe that the other experts on the other side are correct?

Again, you seem to equate disagreement with improper consideration. I could say exactly the same thing about your viewpoints (and perhaps have said so before).

If your head hurts from banging against a brick wall. Well stop! If you cant reach this simple conclusion, how can you argue that you can conclude anything about anything. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

MMMMMM
07-18-2005, 08:54 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Have you considered the possibility that I understand the POV of these "experts" but having considered it believe that the other experts on the other side are correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but it is pretty bizarre to assign such a thing a 100% certainty.

[ QUOTE ]
Again, you seem to equate disagreement with improper consideration. I could say exactly the same thing about your viewpoints (and perhaps have said so before).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but I admit the possibility of error. You are not admitting that possibility in this case.

[ QUOTE ]
If your head hurts from banging against a brick wall. Well stop! If you cant reach this simple conclusion, how can you argue that you can conclude anything about anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm only pointing it out as a favor to you. Or if you wish call it a present; you won't need a birthday present this year;-)

ACPlayer
07-18-2005, 09:00 PM
My life is now complete. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

My birthday has gone by for this year. Hope you have something planned for the next one -- a good book on logic perhaps. Incidentally, and perhaps appropriately, my sign is Taurus the bull!

MMMMMM
07-18-2005, 09:48 PM
[ QUOTE ]
My birthday has gone by for this year. Hope you have something planned for the next one -- a good book on logic perhaps. Incidentally, and perhaps appropriately, my sign is Taurus the bull!

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I'm truly sorry I missed your birthday. Please consider this a belated birthday gift.

And don't worry! I'll make you a similar present next year, and in good time, too!

scalf
07-18-2005, 10:39 PM
/images/graemlins/confused.gif..well;

everyone knows sh*t muslims wanta kill a christian for mohammed; this has been true for centuries;

it is an active part of the islam religion; and all muslims know this;

gl

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif