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David100
07-18-2005, 09:01 AM
No reads, 3rd hand.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

UTG (t915)
Hero (t1000)
MP1 (t1185)
MP2 (t1000)
MP3 (t1160)
CO (t900)
Button (t945)
SB (t985)
BB (t1910)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t15, MP1 calls t15, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t50</font>, SB calls t40, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t35, MP1 calls t35.

Flop: (t212.50) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Hero should do what and why?

Ty,

David

Phill S
07-18-2005, 09:42 AM
Hero check/folds. If hero thinks otherwise curtains will tell him why.

Phill

David100
07-18-2005, 09:43 AM
go on, say why /images/graemlins/smile.gif

poindexter
07-18-2005, 10:54 AM
Since you limped with it I would check fold.

Either you play this hand for a set or you try to win unimproved with it. Either way is ok. By limping with it you are playing it hoping for a set. I personally like to try winning with it so I will raise to 45. After raising you take the lead and you can be more confident on the buttons hand. If he reraises you preflop then muck he has you beat with jj-qq-kk-aa and once in a while AK. (AK will usually just call a raise here). If he calls preflop then you bet half the pot and you can safely fold to a reraise or check fold the turn to another call.

HesseJam
07-18-2005, 10:56 AM
Those 215 seem to be a cakewalk if they are as predictable as you make them to be.

David100
07-18-2005, 11:07 AM
[ QUOTE ]

If he calls preflop then you bet half the pot and you can safely fold to a reraise or check fold the turn to another call.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think betting half the pot always looks weak. prefer to do more than that.

David

gildwulf
07-18-2005, 11:11 AM
You can't make a steal/continuation bet if you limped...you missed your set so you gotta jet.

David100
07-18-2005, 11:14 AM
Well, seeing as i am a skeptical bugger I am always wary of the button raise. However, it seems to me like he was doing the old i am on the button with position, so lets take command of the pot raise (if i thought this why not re raise? cause i want to keep the pot small and use skill to take it). More and more i see people doing this move.

The flop is fairly ragged and rainbow with one high card being a J - would he raise with AJ? With only one higher card why not make a bet representing AJ or a set. This will let me know where I stand and i am happy to fold to a reraise.... Thoughts please..

David

poindexter
07-18-2005, 11:15 AM
"Those 215 seem to be a cakewalk if they are as predictable as you make them to be."

You are good I can see you understand that this hand is not rocket science. Now do you want to elaborate on your thoughts or post some strategy with that comment?

David100
07-18-2005, 11:15 AM
[ QUOTE ]
You can't make a steal/continuation bet if you limped...you missed your set so you gotta jet.

[/ QUOTE ]

more of a speculation bet.

David

sng-sam
07-18-2005, 11:19 AM
No set no bet. Discipline sucks sometimes.

SAM

poindexter
07-18-2005, 11:58 AM
"well, seeing as i am a skeptical bugger..."

I would be skeptical here too. My guess is that he is betting the flop with 2 over cards. Without your preflop raise he could have almost anything.

“The flop is fairly ragged and rainbow with one high card being a J - would he raise with AJ? “

preflop of course he would, he knows that you don’t have AQ or AK and you will likely throw away small pocket pairs to any flop. your hand history stops at the flop but he would raise or bet out AJ regardless.


"so lets take command of the pot raise (if i thought this why not re raise? cause i want to keep the pot small and use skill to take it). More and more i see people doing this move."

Good Idea this will quickly and inexpensively let you know where you are at. It would have been safer and less expensive to raise preflop however

David100
07-18-2005, 11:58 AM
[ QUOTE ]
No set no bet. Discipline sucks sometimes.

SAM

[/ QUOTE ]

is no one going to say put in a bet?

How disastarous is this play then?

would like to hear from the sng gods as well please /images/graemlins/smile.gif

David

Unarmed
07-18-2005, 12:09 PM
Probe bets suck unless you know PF raiser will lay down his overs to your bet. If he will its a perfect flop to throw one out there as its completely drawless.

I check and see what develops because I like to have some information before throwing my chips in the middle.

David100
07-18-2005, 12:13 PM
[ QUOTE ]

It would have been safer and less expensive to raise preflop however

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, in certain conditions i would agree. I think that we need to look at position as well:

In early position at this stage you have no idea how many callers there are going to be. By taking charge pre flop i feel inclined to continuation bet which is not a good idea with bad position, overcards and too many people who have called the raise. With callers i feel inclined to check fold the flop.

However by limping in EP you get to see how many people are playing and also their strength. I wanted to keep the pot small and take it on the flop. (another strategy i often do is re-raise all in if i know they are are good thinking player - as in they think i got a monster!!)

In late position i agree that raising is the right move.


David

FieryJustice
07-18-2005, 01:29 PM
I check and fold in this situation EVERY time. You were going for a set, missed, and now have nothing besides an underpair.

MegaBet
07-18-2005, 01:49 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No set no bet. Discipline sucks sometimes.

SAM

[/ QUOTE ]

is no one going to say put in a bet?

How disastarous is this play then?

would like to hear from the sng gods as well please /images/graemlins/smile.gif

David

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, you asked for it. Check/fold. You are really not that strong.

adanthar
07-18-2005, 02:08 PM
Very easy fold. Quick reasoning: 3 others in, PFR has you beat around half the time depending on his range, the other 2 may or may not have a jack, you'll have to bet 150+ chips to get anywhere and they won't fold 40% of the time combined.

curtains
07-18-2005, 04:29 PM
I would usually just check and fold yes.

raptor517
07-18-2005, 04:32 PM
why does this need an explanation. it is an incredibly easy hand to play. holla

lastchance
07-18-2005, 05:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Very easy fold. Quick reasoning: 3 others in, PFR has you beat around half the time depending on his range, the other 2 may or may not have a jack, you'll have to bet 150+ chips to get anywhere and they won't fold 40% of the time combined.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, no way you should do anything besides check-fold this (well, unless you see a turn nine, that'd be nice).

gildwulf
07-18-2005, 05:57 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You can't make a steal/continuation bet if you limped...you missed your set so you gotta jet.

[/ QUOTE ]

more of a speculation bet.

David

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean more of a dark tunnel bet:

HOH2, p. 31:

"Many beginners and intermediate players find themselves making bets which aren't really bluffs, but aren't value bets either. They're just- bets. I call these "dark tunnel" bluffs. You don't know where you stand, you don't really know what you're doing, but it feels more active to bet than not, so you put more money in the pot. Eventually you've lost a big pot where you never really had much of a chance.

The cure for this syndrome is simple: stay out of dark tunnels. Always know why you are making a bet, and what you expect to gain. Every good bet should either give you a chance to win the pot right there, or provide you with information about your opponent's cards that you can act on through the rest of the hand".

Betting here would fulfill all the requirements of a Dark Tunnel bluff.

curtains
07-18-2005, 06:19 PM
That seems like a smart excerpt somehow...

David100
07-18-2005, 07:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I check and fold in this situation EVERY time. You were going for a set, missed, and now have nothing besides an underpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

here, he only calls AA-JJ (odds anyone?). Also if you win this pot it does not do bad things for table image ie. being dominant (I love to build a table image where people fear to steal off you later in the game).

Why is not a 3/4 pot bet not a bad thing, seeing as it does not cripple you.

David

gildwulf
07-18-2005, 07:18 PM
But what does the bet DO. If he calls a 3/4 bet size you're screwed: you are basically pot committed in a hand you have to fold. If he reraises you you have to fold. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is...

WTF??

David100
07-18-2005, 07:19 PM
[ QUOTE ]


OK, you asked for it. Check/fold. You are really not that strong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Being strong has nothing to do with it. Whether you think the other person is strong or not; or whether you want to portray that yourself is strong has a lot to do with it as well.

David

David100
07-18-2005, 07:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]
why does this need an explanation. it is an incredibly easy hand to play. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

i cant get two quotes in as i am a n00b, so Holla to yourself and curtainz!

David

David100
07-18-2005, 07:24 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Very easy fold. Quick reasoning: 3 others in, PFR has you beat around half the time depending on his range, the other 2 may or may not have a jack, you'll have to bet 150+ chips to get anywhere and they won't fold 40% of the time combined.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very good point i agree with it all except that 1 of those 3 has already shown weakness.

So with your 40% prediction i will win this pot 60% of the time?

David

David100
07-18-2005, 07:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You can't make a steal/continuation bet if you limped...you missed your set so you gotta jet.

[/ QUOTE ]

more of a speculation bet.

David

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean more of a dark tunnel bet:

HOH2, p. 31:

"Many beginners and intermediate players find themselves making bets which aren't really bluffs, but aren't value bets either. They're just- bets. I call these "dark tunnel" bluffs. You don't know where you stand, you don't really know what you're doing, but it feels more active to bet than not, so you put more money in the pot. Eventually you've lost a big pot where you never really had much of a chance.

The cure for this syndrome is simple: stay out of dark tunnels. Always know why you are making a bet, and what you expect to gain. Every good bet should either give you a chance to win the pot right there, or provide you with information about your opponent's cards that you can act on through the rest of the hand".

Betting here would fulfill all the requirements of a Dark Tunnel bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you read above there are a lot of reasons why i made this bet.

The bet which i make gives me a lot of information about the player who raised (it does not cripple me). I would not go over the top of a re raise! I want to know where I am at the moment, and re-iterating my point, if he/she does go over the top, i know where i am and i can fold.

David

David100
07-18-2005, 07:31 PM
[ QUOTE ]
But what does the bet DO. If he calls a 3/4 bet size you're screwed: you are basically pot committed in a hand you have to fold. If he reraises you you have to fold. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is...

WTF??

[/ QUOTE ]

not pot comitted

gildwulf
07-18-2005, 07:32 PM
You are betting into 3 people who called a preflop raise with paint on the board. You might as well just throw the chips away because you're going to get called and then have no way out of the hand except to check/fold (which is what you should have done in the first place).

BBD
07-18-2005, 07:34 PM
Button could be raising with a lot less than AJ here.

gildwulf
07-18-2005, 07:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But what does the bet DO. If he calls a 3/4 bet size you're screwed: you are basically pot committed in a hand you have to fold. If he reraises you you have to fold. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is...

WTF??

[/ QUOTE ]

not pot comitted

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine, if you throw 15% of your stack in the pot I guess you're not pot committed on the flop, but it's still a waste of 150 chips.

David100
07-18-2005, 07:37 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You are betting into 3 people who called a preflop raise with paint on the board. You might as well just throw the chips away because you're going to get called and then have no way out of the hand except to check/fold (which is what you should have done in the first place).

[/ QUOTE ]

betting into three people, one who is weak (checked already) one who is quite weak (just called a raise) and one who could possibly be strong; so effectively betting into one strong hand.

David

David100
07-18-2005, 07:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Button could be raising with a lot less than AJ here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone else agree?

gildwulf
07-18-2005, 07:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are betting into 3 people who called a preflop raise with paint on the board. You might as well just throw the chips away because you're going to get called and then have no way out of the hand except to check/fold (which is what you should have done in the first place).

[/ QUOTE ]

betting into three people, one who is weak (checked already) one who is quite weak (just called a raise) and one who could possibly be strong; so effectively betting into one strong hand.

David

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't know why you are still arguing this...you know betting here is a poor play and everyone has told you why.

David100
07-18-2005, 07:40 PM
on the 60-40 odds quoted above this does not seen so bad, especially considering image that you could build.

gildwulf
07-18-2005, 07:47 PM
The image of a total donk who limps in, misses his set, and bets into 3 opponents with an underpair?

Even if you think the button is raising with less than ace jack...maybe QJ, JT, you are still practically drawing dead to anyone with top pair.

And no, you are not basically betting into "one strong hand"...you are betting into three hands, one of which called a sizeable preflop raise (AK, AQ, AJ?? Who knows and who cares).

You got responses from the "poker gods" (I assume you were talking about Curtains and Raptor) who both said it was a donk move. Everyone on this board who has a reasonable knowledge of SNGs who has posted on this thread has said it's a donk move. I know you are obviously attached to your play on this hand and think you made a brilliant play, but there are only so many times people on the board can say that this is a terrible play. YOU MISSED THE FLOP. LET THE HAND GO.

I am pretty shocked that someone who plays the 215s would so stubbornly defend this kind of play.

David100
07-18-2005, 07:50 PM
[quote

I really don't know why you are still arguing this...you know betting here is a poor play and everyone has told you why.

[/ QUOTE ]

no hard feelings at all are meant here, but i beleive that in arguing you can form a better understanding of the way you play.

I dont think that in this hand a bet is a disastarous play. I agree normally i do behave how everyone does above, but on this occasion i would prefer to go against the convention. On this hand, i do think that there are a number of valid points for making a raise. I also think there are a number of valid reasons for not making this decision. But as i said early, i think the best understanding is heard from arguing, as opposed to aggreeing with the gospel.

Take care,

David

David100
07-18-2005, 07:55 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The image of a total donk who limps in, [ QUOTE ]


you say that as you know my cards... but am i total donk to the others playing? they do not know what i have.. if i raise and fold or raise and win in this situation not knowing my cards am i a donk?

David

gildwulf
07-18-2005, 07:55 PM
I give up.

David100
07-18-2005, 07:56 PM
[ QUOTE ]

Even if you think the button is raising with less than ace jack...maybe QJ, JT, you are still practically drawing dead to anyone with top pair.


[/ QUOTE ]

i am not drawing, thought i made this clear above.

David

David100
07-18-2005, 08:04 PM
[ QUOTE ]

I am pretty shocked that someone who plays the 215s would so stubbornly defend this kind of play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you play 215s out of interst?
I will say again, i do not whole heartedly agree with raising here. I am just arguing against it as it seems feasable in this scenario.

I have not said how i DID play it, but i still dont think that raising is disastarous. Hypothetically it is a good argument as well as the understanding it could do for the forun the good of the forum.


David

adanthar
07-18-2005, 10:47 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Very easy fold. Quick reasoning: 3 others in, PFR has you beat around half the time depending on his range, the other 2 may or may not have a jack, you'll have to bet 150+ chips to get anywhere and they won't fold 40% of the time combined.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very good point i agree with it all except that 1 of those 3 has already shown weakness.

So with your 40% prediction i will win this pot 60% of the time?

David

[/ QUOTE ]

No, read my post again. I said they won't fold 40% combined*. You won't win this pot 40% of the time with this bet, much less 60.

A bet is not good and most of the better posters here have already said why.

*if you do not know why it's exactly 40%, drop down now

poindexter
07-19-2005, 03:08 AM
oops! sorry i didnt notice the other limpers called the buttons raise. I like your post flop bet heads up only.

Also after playing tonight I realized that 99 a borderline hand for me to raise preflop, its close but I will usually limp unless the table is extra passive. 10,10 or better I will raise in any position under any circumstances.