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cero_z
07-17-2005, 11:46 PM
Hi everyone,

I have a friend who's a resident at a WI hospital. She deals with all types of patients who are in fragile mental and/or emotional states, due to a wide variety of factors (possible mental illness, drug abuse, psychotropic medication, ignorant/abusive upbringing, etc.), and who must make important decisions regarding their own health, and that of their families. Quite often, the choices her patients make in this regard are fairly horrifying to her, and she is tempted to redirect them toward a "better" choice. But, my friend doesn't do this if her patient is deemed mentally competent, because she understands that her role as physician is to apply her medical knowledge to helping her patients in the way that THEY choose, within the range of treatment options that she (and the hospital) offers. To presume to choose for them is to assume a different role: that of a parent, and this is not an appropriate role for her as a physician.

Time was, doctors did this all the time; I'm sure many of you are familiar with the great deference older generations afford their doctors, whose attitudes tend to be, "Don't tell ME what's best for you--I'm the doctor." Some doctors are still this way. But "Paternalism" was a buzzword of sorts during my friend's medical training, and attitudes towards it are changing, which I think is a good thing.

I think we have a little bit of paternalism rearing its head in these forums, as well. Some of the very experienced posters will often respond to a line that a player took by saying, essentially, "this line is only good if you're very skilled, and most people aren't, so it's not a good line." I am guilty of this at times, too; it's difficult to watch someone you'd like to help make some of the same mistakes you've made. Still, I don't think that warning a less experienced player off of a potentially effective new perspective is really doing them a service. Though steering them around risky and unusual approaches to the play of hands may save them a few bucks initially, while they're not experienced enough to navigate the pitfalls, it will also probably encourage them to think inflexibly about poker and thereby hamper their development from a solid player into a great player (which is presumably the goal of many of us here).

So, I'm going to say it now: I like to get loco at the table. I will try things that most players would not attempt (like the sequence of bluffs in my recent post) that go way beyond the bounds of "solid play." When these plays fail, they are VERY expensive and make me look like an idiot. When they succeed, most people still think I'm an idiot; just a lucky one. Either way, this style works for me, and I believe the main reason I pull it off is because I'm pretty good at reading (I'm referring both to "tell" play, and interpreting betting actions). This is the result of a lot of thinking and hard work over the last 5 years, and it does not come easily, in my experience.

So anyway, when I post from now on, know that my "advice" comes from the standpoint of, "I don't know what will work for you, but this is the way I'd approach the problem." You can assume that if I'm posting it here, it's not necessarily a good line for newbies to go out and adopt as their default. It might, however, be a good thing to think about, and to balance with the more standard (and more universally correct) line.

man
07-17-2005, 11:56 PM
when I was a senior in high school, there was a freshman that I ran track with who would go balls-to-the-wall on every one of our intervals. I told him that he needed to chill out because he'd start burning out if he wasn't careful. I later realized that discouraging him from running with all his heart was the worst thing I could possibly do as an older runner, and even if he did burn himself out, he'd eventually learn how to pace himself.

whenever I'm berated for using an unorthodox approach, I'm reminded of that kid. I think I can handle the criticism, but I hope that all naive up-and-comers aren't getting discouraged by those kinds of comments.

gomberg
07-18-2005, 12:07 AM
Well said - I love experimenting at the table, and a lot of times it does make me look like an idiot - but it keeps the game interesting and being creative and flexible throughout a session is part of the beauty of this game - plus other players start to fear you, which is a nice power trip...

Voltron87
07-18-2005, 12:33 AM
cero this is a very good post

neon
07-18-2005, 12:50 AM
So true. You know once you win a pot with weird cards or taking an unorthodox line and someone looks at you and says, "you played __ like *that*?" with a mixture of awe and bewilderment, your image will never be the same.

It's funny, really. When I first started playing this game, I absorbed all I could about the standard way of playing: which hands to play from which positions at the table, a good line to take with a flopped set OOP, how to play the nut flush draw on the button.

Now, the only times I use "standard" lines is when I'm either up against someone who plays bad and will pay me off anyway, or versus a good player when I'm bluffing, and employ the basic, ABC line for the hand I'm trying to represent . . .

KaneKungFu123
07-18-2005, 02:38 AM
[ QUOTE ]
So true. You know once you win a pot with weird cards or taking an unorthodox line and someone looks at you and says, "you played __ like *that*?" with a mixture of awe and bewilderment, your image will never be the same.

It's funny, really. When I first started playing this game, I absorbed all I could about the standard way of playing: which hands to play from which positions at the table, a good line to take with a flopped set OOP, how to play the nut flush draw on the button.

Now, the only times I use "standard" lines is when I'm either up against someone who plays bad and will pay me off anyway, or versus a good player when I'm bluffing, and employ the basic, ABC line for the hand I'm trying to represent . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

cero, you put alot of thought and analysis into your game, and you are the best poster on this forum.

coltrane
07-18-2005, 03:44 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I believe the main reason I pull it off is because I'm pretty good at reading (I'm referring both to "tell" play, and interpreting betting actions).

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a key statement to me.....sometimes I think that reading is pretty much this entire game - that anything is possible upon mastering that skill.....in some post I once glanced through on here, Ray Zee said something to the effect of "[when you can figure out exactly what the other guy has, you can always bet your money in such a way that will always win]", and I remember thinking WOW, that's really this whole game in a nutshell.....

it's funny, reading through a lot of the posts on this forum, I think we sometimes forget that we are GAMBLING (and all that that word entails).....I believe a good gambler is a good gambler - and there is an ESSENCE to being a good gambler (which often times I think has to do with the "heart" of a decision being in the right place - not always the decision itself).....but the way one goes about tapping into that essence can be very unique and personal and very different than someone (or anyone) else.......

we all who dedicate time in our life to absorb this forum do so because in some way we strive to be better gamblers.....it's important for me to remember that from time to time and to remember what I love about doing this.....the freedom, the uncertainty, the ability to embrace and apply unique thought......like it's an art form....like it's a perfect balance of science and art....

flawless_victory
07-18-2005, 03:51 AM
i also play quite wild... i think alot of ppl on thiis forum who pay attention will find that surprising bc im always telling ppl to fold...
i like your posts cero... you are my favorite poster, easily.
i am extremely drunk. ciao.

Niwa
07-18-2005, 06:14 AM
I dont have much to say except it was a great post.

mikech
07-18-2005, 07:46 AM
just to echo some of the other sentiments: great post, and cero is definitely on the short list of the best m/hnl posters.

Matt Flynn
07-18-2005, 03:20 PM
Cero,

Aw c'mon I still love ya. ;-)

I know the medical side wasn't the main point of your post, but it's worth saying that people - even completely competent ones - make a lot of spectacularly wrong medical decisions. Yes, a lot of medical care and particularly tests are only marginally helpful. That's where it helps to have a doc who understands the numbers behind the recommendations. But when someone makes a significant wrong decision, like not treating an invasive squamous cell cancer on the ear when they are 62 and healthy, it is my job to be as convincing as possible. "Accepting" someone's "preferences" in those settings is bad medicine, cultural relativism notwithstanding.

No limit-wise, you know my position on loose aggressive play. My best game is 5-6-handed fish and chips played for medium stakes. Against crazy relatively inexperienced players at $500-$1,000 buyins I am lethal. I play a third or more my hands, usually for raises, hammer at will, and generally seem like a nut. The game typically breaks when they run out of chips. It is great good fun to dominate, play so many hands, and win so much money. Against better competition I lose quickly when I play that way. If you can read your opponents very well, you can play a hyperloose aggressive style and win a lot of money, especially if your opponents will continuously lay down for you. Playing loose aggressive is FUN. It's also an easy excuse to indulge in tilt. It's a style worth learning if you have the potential to master it, but it is not necessary for success. Since Zee's been quoted here, let me include that Ray Zee has never in my presence or to my knowledge with respect to the Lucky Chances game played a loose aggressive style or anything remotely resembling loose preflop play.

Obviously the best way to learn a loose aggressive style is to play that way. But how many posters on this forum have an adequate bankroll for their games? Maybe 10% at best. Most of the players here think 20 or 30 buyins is adequate for a pro with no chance of replenishing bankroll. 30 is cutting it close unless you have excellent control and constantly play your best game, which I do not. The rest of you are just kidding yourselves. Then we start talking about loose aggressive play. Now you need a lot more than 20 buyins to stave off gambler's ruin, even if you are a winning loose aggressive. And most will not win playing that way, especially not with a lot of practice. So, when we talk about loose aggressive play, I have all sorts of ideas and little plays I like, chatter that's useful, specific tells, and so on. But my first thought is if I start in with those I am going to get someone broke. If you are going to practice it, drop down in limits and find weak opponents.

As long as that qualifier's in there, let's talk hands.

IMO, the first place to practice loose aggressive skills is with flush and open-ended straight draws on the turn. Size up your opponent, decided whether he likes his hand, and if not fire big. Most players either always bet there heads up or almost never bet there. Figure out where you stand. That's a cheap way to start. If you want, play hyperloose aggressive but limit it to the cutoff and button until they figure you out. Position, position, position.

Ok, who wants to talk 65s?

Matt

Heimdal
07-18-2005, 03:48 PM
great post. all the things i have been thinking about lately in one post

[ QUOTE ]
the first place to practice loose aggressive skills is with flush and open-ended straight draws on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

just a silly question. wouldnt it be better to do this on the flop with two cards to come?

gomberg
07-18-2005, 03:55 PM
[ QUOTE ]
just a silly question. wouldnt it be better to do this on the flop with two cards to come?

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously you do this too - but this move is very transparent. Much harder to do on the turn and people will usually give you credit for a real hand. If they do call, you do have some equity with the draw...

aggie
07-18-2005, 04:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
just a silly question. wouldnt it be better to do this on the flop with two cards to come?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a sliding scale with value betting on one end, semi-bluffing in the middle, and pure bluffing on the other end. The crazy laggish approach that cero and matt are talking about is flirting with the pure bluffing side of that sliding scale.

autobet
07-18-2005, 05:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]


Ok, who wants to talk 65s?

Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise preflop

Roman
07-18-2005, 06:03 PM
Great post. I think a big problem with this forum is that people post only their preferred line in a certain hand, and not all the lines they would take and how often they would take them. It makes people think too one dimentially about the game. The secret to good LAG play is realizing the situations where an unorthadox play will work.

sting
07-18-2005, 08:34 PM
Im a long time lurker that has avoided posting because of what you describe. Maybe Ill get off of the schneid.