How's this for post-flop play?

[suited_ace]

I hated this hand. I hated it while I was playing and I still hate it in hindsight. What would be your line for this one?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 (t1365)
MP2 (t1225)
CO (t795)
Button (t2950)
SB (t465)
Hero (t945)
UTG (t1100)
UTG+1 (t1155)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls t50, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls t50, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t250</font>, MP1 calls t200, Button folds, SB folds.

Flop: (t600) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks.

Turn: (t600) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t350</font>, MP1 calls t350.

River: (t1300) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks.

[suited_ace]

Shameless bump.

[Kama45]

What would you have done if the other dude put you all-in?

[gildwulf]

Yeesh, ok let's see...

Pre-flop 25% of your stack is in the pot...

I think if you're going to make any bet it has to be on the flop...by checking you are telling him you don't have any Ace and he is probably correct to call on the turn. If you're going to bet the only place you have FE is with a continuation bet on the flop. How much to bet?

This is hard to say. I think with your stack committed so much you either have to push on the flop or check/call it down. Aces are pretty much death to kings at low-level buy-ins (people looove their aces) so I would probably check it down.

[HesseJam]

I bet the turn 100 less, otherwise, I play it the same.

If opponent goes all-in at the river, I am lost, don't know what to do and probably call.

[gumpzilla]

I tend to prefer a slightly smaller raise PF with your stack size, or you can push. You're not leaving yourself a lot of room to maneuver after the flop.

The limp-call out of MP is not something that is super suggestive of an A, in my opinion. Sometimes it will be an A, but I think it will very frequently not be. Betting on the turn after he checks behind looks more like a bluff than betting on the flop, with this board. I think given the preflop action and given that there's only one caller, I push this flop just to try and take the pot down right now.

Alternatively, if you're not scared of the flush draw (which I don't think you have much reason to be), you can view this as a way ahead-way behind situation and just check-call the whole way. This might be a better approach here, the more I think about it.

[Unarmed]

It's really not that bad.
The villain that checks his ace behind here is pretty rare.
Most people won't open check an ace in your postition either.

So you neither of you has an ace here most of the time, and both of you should know that. My goal here is to make the most off an underpair to my KK, recognizing that the odds of him having 2 hearts are pretty low. (its HU and the flush ace is on the board in a raised pot)

I don't like the turn bet. The typical opponent is overly aggro so show weakness, check, and call whatever he bets. Your bet is ok against a calling station on a different board (A-low-low) but the odds of him having a middle pair he's willing to call the turn with (i.e.: exactly QQ) is pretty low.

That's your dream card on the river is he's aggro, especially if you showed weakness on the turn by check/calling. Either way check and call whatever he bets.

Betting the flop would be flat out wrong against most opponents. (the exception being the guy who both never bluffs and won't put another dime in the pot unless he sets up) Oh and in case it's not obvious, I'm losing my stack to an ace, mostly due to your stack depth on the flop and the fact that the PF action isn't really consistent with an ace. (he'd need a good one to call off 250 and he would have just raised a good ace to begin with)

PS: The worst part about the entire hand is the PF raise amount.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
I think given the preflop action and given that there's only one caller, I push this flop just to try and take the pot down right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the logic behind pushing the flop? Isn't this the classic "you'll only be called by a better hand" scenario? Or are you pushing just to avoid getting bluffed off your hand? Like you said, there's no real reason to overly fear the flush draw, so there's even less reason to push the flop.

To me, this is a hand that, by the turn, you've just got to stick with your read (no ace) and either bet for value or try to induce a bluff from a lower PP.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

What is the logic behind pushing the flop? Isn't this the classic "you'll only be called by a better hand" scenario? Or are you pushing just to avoid getting bluffed off your hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

The latter. However, as long as you're willing to put as much of your stack in as you're called to then I think it is probably better to check-call.

[45suited]

Gump, that's why in spots like this, I would never push, since you know as well as I do that NO ace is ever going to fold here to your push. Unless the board is scary draw heavy, I'd rather check-call than push. (If I don't think he has an ace, which, I agree with you, it doesn't seem like he does.)

[pearljam]

how much should he have bet pre-flop?

[gumpzilla]

Yeah, I think it's best. I just have an ingrained dislike of lines that involve check-calling for potentially my entire stack, even though it probably is the right move here.

[Offsprung]

Bet the flop. Check/fold.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop. Check/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Terrible.

[suited_ace]

Unarmed, I really like your line. Just to make things clear, here's how the hand was played for me...

I raise PF (and yeah, I think I was a little bit too trigger-happy, but at the same time I'm trying to compensate for all those limpers) and get one caller. This built a large pot, and when the flop came I was torn between checking or throwing a continuation bet that would totally pot-commit me.

I chose checking and when he checked behind I was pretty sure that my hand was good. That's why I bet the turn, and I would've called a possible push from Villain, btw. The river check was a shot at CR him all-in.

How much would you have raised PF?

[suited_ace]

[ QUOTE ]
Aces are pretty much death to kings at low-level buy-ins (people looove their aces) so I would probably check it down.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a $55. It's not a $215, but it's not a $11 either...

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
How much would you have raised PF?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops. I didn't see the other limper.
Still I probably make it 175.
I want action with KK.
Plus I don't vary my PF raises by hand and if I have AK I don't want to pot stick myself.

I'm different though...
In lev 3+ when not pushing PF I generally make it 2.5BB +1/2BB for each limper. It fits my playing style better. If you're c-betting a good chunk of your whiffed AKs then the old 3BB+1 for each limper is fine.

That's pretty general advice though, every situation is different and you always want to consider what sort of pot size and remaining stack you'll have if called in one or two places.

[curtains]

When your stack equals the amount of money in the pot you should generally play it extremely strongly. You have some kind of hand and free cards could be dangerous, Id simply move allin on the flop.

Yes you probably won't get called by worse hands of course but this is irrelevant when the pot is large, what's really important to you is winning the 600 in the pot with as little problem as possible.