Too much? - A8s [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

shant

07-17-2005, 09:31 PM

Fifth or eighth hand in so it's readless.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets, 6 folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB bets, Hero raises

ArturiusX

07-17-2005, 09:38 PM

Preflops a bit loose to me, I assume you were playing at a rock garden or something and wanted to change it up a bit, which might be ok.

I like the rest.

sy_or_bust

07-17-2005, 10:00 PM

I'm never ever raising this preflop without a full table read of extraordinary rocks. Why would you raise this?

The rest is very good.

shant

07-17-2005, 10:03 PM

I open-raise ATs and A9s pretty much automatically, so I wasn't sure about this one, which is part of the reason I titled it that way. I guess it's not so good readless.

ArturiusX

07-17-2005, 10:07 PM

Im actually leaning towards a call on the turn. I initially thought that we could fold out UTG+1 overpairs/cards (JJ/AK etc), but I think this is very unlikely. By raising we're also opening ourselves up to a big re-raise.

So maybe call folding the river UI?

sy_or_bust

07-17-2005, 10:14 PM

Funny. I still think TT-QQ are often folding, and some players might drop KK too. The real question IMO is whether there is any chance Hero beats BB on the turn. Earlier I assumed so. But if this is untrue, I'm thinking this raise is a bad idea because a river ace will beat every hand UTG+1 might fold on the turn, and BB might even 3-bet a set.

So maybe just call??

Nick C

07-17-2005, 10:25 PM

Disclaimer: I'm drawing from my 3/6 experiences, which may not apply so well to the 10/20.

I'm thinking that, unless BB has 66, 55 or 33, Hero is most likely in third place on the turn. There is the question, too, of what hand Hero is representing with the raise, given the previous action. I guess a set of 7's or JJ?

But if UTG+1 doesn't fold, that may be just as well, since I think we're probably drawing versus both him and the BB.

It's possible, too, that UTG+1 will pop it with his KK or whatnot if we don't but will just call if we raise first.

Getting UTG+1 to fold a better hand while BB calls with a worse one is absolutely terrific those times that it happens, but I'm thinking that scenario will be kind of rare.

So I think I like just calling the turn.

aK13

07-17-2005, 10:45 PM

1. Call -- If you call, UTG+1 is very likely to raise it behind you, costing you 1 more BB to get to the river.

2. Raise -- I doubt any sane player is 3betting again here unless he has the one combination of 88 that is left, costing you 1 more BB to get to the river as well.

Thus, I like raising here, as it will likely cost us the same to get to the river, but adds a chance (almost nonexistent, but possible) chance that player behind us folds a better hand, or lets us take a free showdown.

However, if you are called, do you value bet the river if it's checked to you?

Unless the turn comes back for 2 bets, I'm probably seeing a showdown.

mr pink

07-17-2005, 10:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I still think TT-QQ are often folding, and some players might drop KK too.

[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree here. i think you'd be hard pressed to find a typical opponent who is able to fold an overpair in this spot. i'd guess QQ and KK are almost never folding, and JJ-TT are calling down like 90% of the time.

ropey

07-17-2005, 10:52 PM

I can't believe what I'm reading...no doubt that your suggested play will improve your chances of winning...but that doesn't make it correct.

You have very little chance to win this pot. I think you should fold as soon as the BB bets into you on the turn.

-ropey

Entity

07-17-2005, 10:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I can't believe what I'm reading...no doubt that your suggested play will improve your chances of winning...but that doesn't make it correct.

You have very little chance to win this pot. I think you should fold as soon as the BB bets into you on the turn.

-ropey

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm really hoping you missed the fact that shant picked up an extra 9 outs on the turn.

Rob

ropey

07-17-2005, 11:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm really hoping you missed the fact that shant picked up an extra 9 outs on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I most certainly was. That makes a little more sense. Thanks.

-ropey

shant

07-18-2005, 01:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i think you'd be hard pressed to find a typical opponent who is able to fold an overpair in this spot. i'd guess QQ and KK are almost never folding, and JJ-TT are calling down like 90% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a great point. At first I thought, great he bet again, now I can blow UTG+1 off of his overpair, but I think I overestimated how often they'll lay it down. Also, another thing to consider is what BB is stop-n-going the turn with.

shant

07-18-2005, 01:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
However, if you are called, do you value bet the river if it's checked to you?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm definitely behind UTG+1, and I'm not sure where I stand with the BB, so I'm not putting in any bets on the river unless I improve.

gaming_mouse

07-18-2005, 04:37 AM

No. Call instead. You risk a 3-bet. And who wants a free showdown anyway? He will keep betting his overpair when you river your flush and you can raise then.

EDIT: Btw, since that card completed no draws, there is no way he's folding his overpair on the chance that you hit two pair or a set.

oreogod

07-18-2005, 07:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I open-raise ATs and A9s pretty much automatically, so I wasn't sure about this one, which is part of the reason I titled it that way. I guess it's not so good readless.

[/ QUOTE ]

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....christ, gotta love watching the WPT late night.

Anyway, yeah read less I dont make this raise with A9s/A8s...maybe ATs.

Anyway I call this turn, last to act I like a raise, but at that point villian has probably popped it already, so 3-bettng would be no good. Eh, I call. No benefits to a raise and Villian isnt folding....yet.

jason_t

07-18-2005, 07:52 AM

I would just call preflop if the table is loose otherwise I'd fold. On the flop I would just call and call the inevitable raise from UTG+1's QQ; you can do this as you'll effectively be getting 6.75:1 to hit a 5.5--6.5 outer with implied odds. On the turn, I just call as it smells like the BB has 87 and you'll have to call his 3-bet with the flush draw. Fold the river if you don't hit aces up or the flush.

PokerBob

07-18-2005, 09:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Fifth or eighth hand in so it's readless.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets, 6 folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB bets, Hero raises

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not nuts about preflop. Ballsy turn.

shant

07-18-2005, 12:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would just call preflop

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, this is what I should have done because the table had been going multi-way preflop. I think A8s is pushing it UTG.

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop I would just call and call the inevitable raise from UTG+1's QQ;

[/ QUOTE ]
I can't tell if this is a joke since I told you the results, or if you would just call the flop anyway. I raised to knock out overcards.

I think I've been convinced that calling the turn is better.

shant

07-19-2005, 01:36 PM

UTG+1 thought for a sec and called cold. BB 3-bet, I called, UTG+1 called. River was a black 2, BB checked, I checked, UTG+1 checked.

BB - 78o
UTG+1 wins with QQ.

You guys were right about folding out big pairs. I think calling the turn is best. Maybe even calling the flop too.

BWebb

07-19-2005, 02:25 PM

I think this is a little too much.

Preflop-I'd probably fold until I knew what kind of table we were playing at. However, if you are going to play I like the raise.

Flop-Very nice.

Turn-I just don't see an opponent folding his overpair (maybe 99 & 10-10) to an unknown opponent. If you had some history and he respected your play, then this could work. However, I wouldn't fold to an unknown in this spot, especially with the turn making semi-bluffing a strong possibility. Also, if he stays on the gas and 3-bets you might lose small blind on a hand you are behind and would like to have in the pot should you make your hand or SB might have a strong hand and 3-bet, charging yourself more on your draw. In all, I think this is a call.

callmedonnie

07-19-2005, 03:19 PM

I'm usually folding this preflop. I like the flop. Turn is interesting. I might not raise because I'm expecting UTG+1 to 3 bet, and he sure looks like he has overpair. with 10/25 BB in the pot, wouldn't you rather peel one for 2 BB and not 3?

callmedonnie

07-19-2005, 03:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold the river if you don't hit aces up or the flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about an eight? Are you raising or check/calling fearing a boat to your trips?

hobbsmann

11-24-2005, 05:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe even calling the flop too.

[/ QUOTE ]
At first this sounds like a horrible idea, but with a little more though I kind of like it as you either are behind UTG1, but still drawing fairly live, or you have him crushed and drawing to 3 outs. Something about still seems kind of dirty to me, but would be interested in other thoughts.