Bitter No More? (problems with SSHE starting hand charts)

[BitterChris]

I was a 5 BB/hr loser in games I should have been destroying, read everything I could (a stack of books as long as my arm) and still was just getting creamed by the weak fish at limits as low as 1/2 and 2/4.

Then it dawned on me, something I read must have been wrong! There are big problems with these charts in ways I can't even begin to explain... nor would I want to, for fear of educating the fish /images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

Now I am avoiding the bad beats (or at least can take them), and making money on my big hands.

- Bitterness is joy with a bad attitude

[cold_cash]

Go You!

[shant]

Yeah! You have no idea what you're talking about!

[Entity]

Can I get a copy of your new starting hand chart? I've been having similar problems at lower limits (I have had good results at high limits where people respect my raises) and I need to figure out what's going on.

Thanks in advance!

Rob

[shant]

I hope everyone that responds to this post keeps the trend going of ending their statement with an exclamation point!

[TimM]

Me too!

[DavidC]

fold preflop.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop!

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP!

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Way to kill the streak dude!

[Paxosmotic]

[ QUOTE ]
Can I get a copy of your new starting hand chart? I've been having similar problems at lower limits (I have had good results at high limits where people respect my raises) and I need to figure out what's going on.

Thanks in advance!

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]
This is funny in ways you can't possibly imagine.

[sthief09]

I love poker! people run bad and assume what they're doing is wrong! then they do the opposite and win one day and think it's right! that's why I'm always puzzled at how the players on Party do such weird, stupid things! then I realize that they're just associating good luck with doing the right thing and vice versa! that's why they play hands like 74o! because they always win (twice)! I have a friend who will raise the flop if he raised preflop no matter what! it's probably because he won a lot of money when he first started playing like that and now he thinks he's just unlucky or somehow is playing different!


good times!

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop!

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP!

[/ QUOTE ]

SOO-RRRY!

I didn't read the whole thread before replying, okay!?.. !

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[BitterChris]

There is no chart, I just stopped using the one in SSHE. Everything else in the book is great advice, though - it vastly improved my postflop play. I can't give too much away, but if you use everything else you know about poker, you'll do swimmingly. When I bank my first million (not including living expenses and any luxury items I may buy), I'll let everyone else in on what exactly is wrong with it.

That strategy set me back a full year (and I had only been playing seriously for 9 months at the time). I was a 1.5-2 BB winner before I read SSHE, and I'm doing much better now (more than 4BB/hr at 2/4), and I my win rate is much more stable. Ed Miller owes me $384 (which is what I lost from when I started using that preflop strategy, from my StatKing data).

It got to a point where I couldn't even EAT fish for almost three months - I thought it was mocking me (doing the "You can't touch this" dance, like in Shark Tale). I even dropped all the way back down to .25/.50 to try to find my game, and maybe even just play for fun and give up my dream of going pro. Then I noticed that I had to clear a $100 bonus in a week that I had been sitting on for a while, and the only way I could do it was by playing at least 25-30 hours of 2/4 or higher. I coudn't keep doing what I had been so I just decided to try a different style. Needless to say I had a nice salmon dinner the next night, and enjoyed every bite.

So cheer up, everyone who thinks they really are a good, maybe even great player, but their results just aren't showing it - there really is hope!

I am now upgrading my mood level from Bitter (Red) to Sullen (Orange).

- Bitterness is joy with a bad attitude

[clownshoes]

I love gold!

[jstewsmole]

[ QUOTE ]
I was a 1.5-2 BB winner before I read SSHE, and I'm doing much better now (more than 4BB/hr at 2/4), and I my win rate is much more stable.

[/ QUOTE ]

THis one time, at band camp, we were playing holdem, and my winrate was like 10 BB/100 for like 600 hands.

Chris im beggin u what is ur starting hand chart look like?
Im glad u finaly found the secret to the whole starting hands thing as that is the true secret to poker. I mean everyone knows how to play postflop already.

I just figured winning 2 to 3 bb/100 was running bad. Now i know that i just haveto learn how to play preflop.

One tip i can give about BR management is that whenever i have a winrate that is better than average for the day, i take all the surplus money and just spend i t on expensive dinners and other things to treat myself.

Cause its like free money at that point /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[shant]

Let's stop posting in this thread and let it dissapear.

[Paxosmotic]

[ QUOTE ]
One tip i can give about BR management is that whenever i have a winrate that is better than average for the day, i take all the surplus money and just spend i t on expensive dinners and other things to treat myself.

Cause its like free money at that point /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Really? That's kinda dumb. Whenever I have a winning session (everytime I sit) I just withdraw the profits since I'm far too good at poker to go on a downswing.

Can't wait to see the PF chart after your first million Chris, hope there's some fish left in the sea for me! /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]
Can I get a copy of your new starting hand chart? I've been having similar problems at lower limits (I have had good results at high limits where people respect my raises) and I need to figure out what's going on.

Thanks in advance!

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Good line against a fish /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[BitterChris]

Looks like Shant knows the secret as well /images/graemlins/wink.gif
Don't worry, it is safe with me.

As a note, as of today I am now an overall WINNER again (after 7 months being underwater). Not by much, but enough to put me in the black.

I am confident that I am a winning player now, at least at the lower limits, instead of never being sure of my abilities. Here is a list of the books I have read (just about, excluding the blackjack and stud ones): http://www.twoplustwo.com/books.html, plus others by Brunson, Cloutier (ignored a lot of it), and Hellmuth (ignored a lot of it).

There REALLY is no chart, just rip pp 76-92 out of your copy of SSHE, feed them to your dog, read the loose games section of HEPFAP, and rake in the buxxx. There is something horribly wrong if 2+2ers can't make a HUGE profit against people who play any 2 suited cards, Any Ace, any King, and will call a raise with any Ace.

I take my beats now, but I laugh them off. I know the money is coming my way sooner or later. It used to be when at a great table, I would bust out after taking several horrible beats, buy in again regretting it, bust out again and leave broke. Now I put that money right back on the table, and let it grow until the fish go to sleep (do fish sleep?).

When you really get the hang of holdem (low-limit at least), it is almost like stealing. I had to put a lot of effort into it, but now it all makes sense. This is the only major issue I've had with any 2+2 book (there are some really close plays in examples of rare situations that I've disagreed with, but nothing that would affect your results on a day to day basis).

- Bitterness is joy with a bad attitude

[Ed Miller]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no chart, I just stopped using the one in SSHE. Everything else in the book is great advice, though - it vastly improved my postflop play. I can't give too much away, but if you use everything else you know about poker, you'll do swimmingly. When I bank my first million (not including living expenses and any luxury items I may buy), I'll let everyone else in on what exactly is wrong with it.

That strategy set me back a full year (and I had only been playing seriously for 9 months at the time). I was a 1.5-2 BB winner before I read SSHE, and I'm doing much better now (more than 4BB/hr at 2/4), and I my win rate is much more stable. Ed Miller owes me $384 (which is what I lost from when I started using that preflop strategy, from my StatKing data).

[/ QUOTE ]

So my bad preflop advice cost you $384, but my good postflop advice will help you bank a million! That sounds like a pretty good tradeoff to me! So if I owe you the $384 (or, let's say a small percentage of that like 1-5%) then you should definitely owe me a piece of your million! I think one percent is fair!

So from this point forward, let's just say you owe me 1% of your million, or $10,000! You can feel free to pay in monthly installments (with a very reasonable interest rate like, say, 4.25%)! And make sure you deduct the $3.84 I owe you from the first payment!

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
! ! ! !

! ! !

[/ QUOTE ]
Ed Miller is rad.

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
So cheer up, everyone who thinks they really are a good, maybe even great player, but their results just aren't showing it - there really is hope!

[/ QUOTE ]
Awesome!

I know I'm a great player but I keep losing my bankroll and can't figure out why. Thanks to your advice, I've started systematically pulling pages out of poker books and re-reading the new expurgated versions.

In my case, I think my preflop play is OK but my play after the flop was bad. So I ripped the entire post-flop section of SSHE out, and burned it so I wasn't temped to put it back in, and not only am I finally winning, but it doesn't take nearly as long to reread SSHE!

Thanks so much for helping turn my poker life around!

[Pocket77s]

Sorry guy, I can't agree with you on this. I've read SSHE over, and over, and over again and again. Each time I learn a new concept and each time earn more money at the table. The first time I read it I "thought" I was better but after re-reading it, I realized I had more work to do. But I'm glad your winning. As long as your winning it doesn't matter how you do it. I feel you on the BB. I just can only laugh when someone hits a runner runner heart to draw out on your top pair Q w/ Ace kicker. "friggin FISH"

[Paxosmotic]

Oh man that's just comedy /images/graemlins/laugh.gif Way to laugh off the criticism, Ed.

[BitterChris]

Sorry, Ed - just being bitter about almost giving up /images/graemlins/mad.gif.

Maybe the games have changed since the book was written, but I have just not had any luck with these guidelines. Some players are a lot worse than usual, others are some seriously decent players for 2/4 or 3/6 trying to move up, and of course you have the LAGs and the trappers.

One of the problems with reading two dozen poker books and applying them all is that when things go south, and you reread them to reinforce your learning, if things still don't turn around, you have to figure out what you read that needs adjustment. That adds up to almost 7500 pages for me - that's a lot of thinking to do.

Now I have normal swings, instead of always winning small or losing big, and I am confident that I should have a positive expectation (at the smaller limits at least), because now I can take my bad beats. I saw a guy raise JJ under the gun the other day, his opponent called with 72o and flopped 2 pair (no fooling), the jacks bet all the way down with an overpair in a heads-up pot, the fish didnt even bother to raise him. When he saw that he had lost, he swore and left the table - when the game was excellent. I used to be like that, thinking I lost my profit for the entire day on a hand like that, now I chuckle and increase my buy-in when I get my better hands cracked like that, since I know that they won't stay lucky forever.

Will keep everyone posted.

- Bitterness is joy with a bad attitude

[donger]

[ QUOTE ]
thinking I lost my profit for the entire day on a hand like that,

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow! Your profit for the day is 3.5 BB! It's going to take a while to get that million!

P.S. Can I have your starting hand chart!

[666]

!

[666]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
! ! ! !

! ! !

[/ QUOTE ]
Ed Miller is rad.

[/ QUOTE ]

[BitterChris]

That's exactly right, I was a 1.5 - 2 BB/hr winner beforehand, and I would play for a couple hours after dinner before bed:

2 SB from PF caller + blinds = 1.75BB net profit
1 SB on flop = 2.25 BB net profit
1 BB on turn and river = 4.25 BB net profit, less rake
= about 3.75 BB
/2 = 1.875 BB/hr

Of course, now that I'm winning again, I'm playing a lot more /images/graemlins/tongue.gif. I just had aces cracked tonight to someone who cold-called a raise w 37s, played for an hour before dinner, would have been up 16 BB, but still made just over 4BB/hr, and added a new fish to my list.

[Rudbaeck]

[ QUOTE ]
read the loose games section of HEPFAP, and rake in the buxxx.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're now folding AJo on the button after four loose players limp?

[Exsubmariner]

That hurt my head.

[jjacky]

i consider openers jokes to be funny.

[jjacky]

[ QUOTE ]
Looks like Shant knows the secret as well /images/graemlins/wink.gif
Don't worry, it is safe with me.


[/ QUOTE ]

i am sorry, but i am going to reveal the secret...

fold AA - TT and AK. play 72o- 82o and 83o instead. that makes sure that you are on the right side of the bad beat.

[ZenMusician]

I've posted twice to try to get my favorite poker author to
respond to no avail...and THIS is what YOU get his attention
with?? I Hate you!!! /images/graemlins/mad.gif

-ZEN

[Crimson]

Hey chris, lets play heads up, all day. I'd love it. You keep up your PF play buddy : )

I love people like this.

[smokingrobot]

lmao!

[J. Sawyer]

Simply improving on preflop hand selection will not make you a winner. Although it is important.

[pokerrookie]

[ QUOTE ]
That's exactly right, I was a 1.5 - 2 BB/hr winner beforehand, and I would play for a couple hours after dinner before bed:

2 SB from PF caller + blinds = 1.75BB net profit
1 SB on flop = 2.25 BB net profit
1 BB on turn and river = 4.25 BB net profit, less rake
= about 3.75 BB
/2 = 1.875 BB/hr

Of course, now that I'm winning again, I'm playing a lot more /images/graemlins/tongue.gif. I just had aces cracked tonight to someone who cold-called a raise w 37s, played for an hour before dinner, would have been up 16 BB, but still made just over 4BB/hr, and added a new fish to my list.

[/ QUOTE ]

AA is on the chart. If we keep him posting, we should be able to figure out them all.

[A_Junglen]

Oooo does this magical chart have colors?

[hicherbie]

lol ed /images/graemlins/smile.gif