Getting used to the 55s - AK preflop

[pergesu]

22s I call with the quickness. What's the donk factor here?


***** Hand History for Game 2378559282 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:14013444 Level:2 Blinds(15/30) - Sunday, July 17, 12:41:49 EDT 2005
Table Table 11135 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 10: ElBobo ( $715 )
Seat 9: pattywack85 ( $955 )
Seat 5: The_Jopker ( $1230 )
Seat 3: thuanhodang3 ( $885 )
Seat 6: sunEcorleone ( $1015 )
Seat 4: maltis2 ( $930 )
Seat 2: FALCONS_86 ( $2395 )
Seat 7: lada666 ( $1000 )
Seat 8: ch53pilot ( $875 )
Trny:14013444 Level:2
Blinds(15/30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to pattywack85 [ Ac Kd ]
FALCONS_86: lucky
thuanhodang3 folds.
maltis2 folds.
The_Jopker calls [30].
sunEcorleone calls [30].
lada666 folds.
ch53pilot folds.
pattywack85 raises [120].
ElBobo is all-In [700]
FALCONS_86 folds.
The_Jopker folds.
sunEcorleone folds.
Your time bank will become active in less than 20 seconds. If you do not want it to be used, please act now.
pattywack85 calls [595].

[mmbt0ne]

How did bobo lose his first 300 chips?

You're getting almost 1.5:1 on your call, so I think I would definitely call if it was AKs. It would really depend on what I had seen from villian with AKo though. I would probably dump it, but that could easily be wrong.

[astarck]

How bobo lost his first 300 chips is very important here.

Under normal conditions I fold AKo and AKs here. If bobo is an idiot and lost 300 chips on the first hand with garbage I think I take my chances and call.

[durron597]

I call against the total idiots and the very best players. I fold against the solidish decent players.

The idea being is that a very good player would realize that his action would make you consider folding AK here, for a squeezeplayish type of move.

[gildwulf]

Well, since I was in that game I can provide my two cents:)

From watching the play in the game, this looked like a hand where he didn't mind picking up the blinds but wouldn't mind being called...ie 55-JJ...this was my read on him.

I told Perg that if he wanted to gamb00l for 1st on a coinflip he should call. However, you'll notice he had 800+ chips left over if he folded here...I think either folding or calling are both fine, but calling is playing for 1st and folding is playing for ITM.

[astarck]

It is way too early to consider this a gambool for 1st. It is only the 2nd hand. If you determine that this call is for 1st place you are vastly underestimating what goes on in the rest of the SNG with escalating blinds and so forth.

Sure it helps him for much of the tourney if he wins this hand, but so much can happen from here on out that this hand has very little to do with actually getting 1st or not. Maybe ITM or not would be better rational.

EDIT - was your 55-JJ read on bobo?

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

I told Perg that if he wanted to gamb00l for 1st on a coinflip he should call.

[/ QUOTE ]

If villian can have AQ or AJ here this is a very obvious call, just AQ then it's still a call but not as obvious.

If Villian must have a PP to make this play then it's borderline. If Villian must have a big PP (JJ+) then this is a fold.

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
It is way too early to consider this a gambool for 1st. It is only the 2nd hand. If you determine that this call is for 1st place you are vastly underestimating what goes on in the rest of the SNG with escalating blinds and so forth.

Sure it helps him for much of the tourney if he wins this hand, but so much can happen from here on out that this hand has very little to do with actually getting 1st or not. Maybe ITM or not would be better rational.

EDIT - was your 55-JJ read on bobo?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea my 55-JJ was on the bobo.

OK, here is where my thinking differs from some people who post here.

Yes, just because you have 2000 chips does not mean you can fold into 1st. But that's not the point...with 2000 chips you have a lot of legroom and way more options open to you if you are a very solid player. You don't have to fold until you make top ten hands...you can limp a lot more hands in late position, you can put people to all their chips and make them fold solid hands, you can be more aggressive on every flop even if you miss simply because a continuation bet isn't 20% of your stack. In addition, when things tighten up around 5-6 players left (and at the 50s it becomes WAY too tight around this time) you have a HUGE advantage on stealing blinds.

If I win 2000 chips early on this turns into 3000+ on the bubble when people are struggling to fold ITM. Yes, chips are worth less early on but if you have a skill advantage or even are just more aggressive than the tight-weak opponents (and you know when to fold vs. a tight-weak reraise) then it is a HUGE advantage.

This is what I mean by calling for 1st.

[gildwulf]

Also note that doubling up early in 10s, 20s and 30s is 1600 chips, and at 50s it's 2000. BIG difference.

[Jay36489]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, since I was in that game I can provide my two cents:)

[snip]

I told Perg that if he wanted to gamb00l for 1st on a coinflip he should call. However, you'll notice he had 800+ chips left over if he folded here...I think either folding or calling are both fine, but calling is playing for 1st and folding is playing for ITM.

[/ QUOTE ]

collusion?

[astarck]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, here is where my thinking differs from some people who post here.

Yes, just because you have 2000 chips does not mean you can fold into 1st.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that thinking differs from many people here at all. Folding into 1st or ITM is farthest from my mind, and probably most others on this board.

[ QUOTE ]
But that's not the point...with 2000 chips you have a lot of legroom and way more options open to you if you are a very solid player. You don't have to fold until you make top ten hands...you can limp a lot more hands in late position, you can put people to all their chips and make them fold solid hands, you can be more aggressive on every flop even if you miss simply because a continuation bet isn't 20% of your stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do have more legroom, but I don't know about a lot. You are making it sound as if you have never lost a 1000 chip lead during the 1st blind level. Even with a tremendous skill advantage 1000 chip leads at this point in the game (or at any point) are tiny. You lose one coinflip to another person (maybe another AK hand) and you are suddenly back down to 1000 chips while someone else has 2000.

[ QUOTE ]
In addition, when things tighten up around 5-6 players left (and at the 50s it becomes WAY too tight around this time) you have a HUGE advantage on stealing blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see this as your biggest advantage, yet its SO far away from any type of bubble that thinking each chip you win now helps you on the bubble seems pretty unreasonable.


[ QUOTE ]
If I win 2000 chips early on this turns into 3000+ on the bubble when people are struggling to fold ITM. Yes, chips are worth less early on but if you have a skill advantage or even are just more aggressive than the tight-weak opponents (and you know when to fold vs. a tight-weak reraise) then it is a HUGE advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not the greatest SNG player by far, but I have seen 2000 chips turn into <1000 chips VERY easily. I don't think you are close at all to being a lock on 3000 chips at the bubble.

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, since I was in that game I can provide my two cents:)

[snip]

I told Perg that if he wanted to gamb00l for 1st on a coinflip he should call. However, you'll notice he had 800+ chips left over if he folded here...I think either folding or calling are both fine, but calling is playing for 1st and folding is playing for ITM.

[/ QUOTE ]

collusion?

[/ QUOTE ]

No

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, since I was in that game I can provide my two cents:)

[snip]

I told Perg that if he wanted to gamb00l for 1st on a coinflip he should call. However, you'll notice he had 800+ chips left over if he folded here...I think either folding or calling are both fine, but calling is playing for 1st and folding is playing for ITM.

[/ QUOTE ]

collusion?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm 1/13 ITM in my recent $55 foray. That'd be pretty crappy collusion.

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
You lose one coinflip to another person (maybe another AK hand) and you are suddenly back down to 1000 chips while someone else has 2000.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this not an IMMENSE advantage?

[Jay36489]

Maybe I misunderstood. If you are discussing this while playing its a problem. Did you mean you discussed this after?

[pergesu]

We ended up in the same game, and shortly after I busted he sent me a PM saying he didn't really like the call I made.

[Jay36489]

Ah my bad. The way he worded it I thought the other...

[astarck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You lose one coinflip to another person (maybe another AK hand) and you are suddenly back down to 1000 chips while someone else has 2000.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this not an IMMENSE advantage?

[/ QUOTE ]

Advantage: Yes. IMMENSE Advantage: No.

Throughout the SNG others will undoubtably also be adding to their chipstacks. I was merely giving an example of how your IMMENSE advantage could be easily wiped away. You could very well lose a coinflip to another 2000'er and be out.

I'm not saying it wouldn't help you to win, I'm just saying I think it is too early to be thinking about cashing just yet. So much of the SNG has yet to be played.

[gildwulf]

I understand what you're saying, but I think about 1st every single hand I play. Any chips I can get my hands on are an advantage, 100-1000...for me SNGs are just a race to accrue the most chips and the only variable that matters is how much risk you are willing to take to get these chips. To say "it's too early to think about 1st" is kinda silly to me.

p.s. to the guy who accused me of colluding...just because twoplustwoers play games together all the time doesn't mean colluding...it's bound to happen when you multitable and it's also fun to have someone solid to compete with and watch your play...

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not the greatest SNG player by far

[/ QUOTE ]

You are a very solid player from what I have seen at the 22s...

[Jay36489]

[ QUOTE ]
p.s. to the guy who accused me of colluding...just because twoplustwoers play games together all the time doesn't mean colluding...it's bound to happen when you multitable and it's also fun to have someone solid to compete with and watch your play...

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a name... And as I already said, your wording made me think that, so I asked, I didn't accuse...