3/8 ppls at table flame me. I contend this was a brilliant push.

[Big Limpin']

***** Hand History for Game 2377789337 *****
50/100 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 14008935) - Sun Jul 17 07:02:54 EDT 2005
Table Table 35019 (Real Money) -- Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 1: mrspokerprop (670)
Seat 4: illa5th (855)
Seat 5: indiakid (955)
Seat 6: Gun29 (1340)
Seat 7: cajunbeach (2085)
Seat 8: taksells (2180)
Seat 10: ryba555 (1915)
Gun29 posts small blind (25)
cajunbeach posts big blind (50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to illa5th [ 7c, 8c ]
taksells calls (50)
ryba555 calls (50)
mrspokerprop calls (50)
taksells: trapping hurts sometimes
illa5th raises (855) to 855
illa5th is all-In.
indiakid folds.
Gun29 folds.
cajunbeach folds.
taksells folds.
ryba555 calls (805)
Gun29: i know
mrspokerprop folds.
Creating Main Pot with $1885 with illa5th
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Jc, Td, 9h ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Tc ]
** Dealing River ** : [ Jh ]
** Summary **
Main Pot: 1885 |
Board: [ Jc Td 9h Tc Jh ]
mrspokerprop balance 620, lost 50 (folded)
illa5th balance 1885, bet 855, collected 1885, net +1030 [ 7c 8c ] [ a straight, seven to jack -- Jc,Td,9h,8c,7c ]
indiakid balance 955, didn't bet (folded)
Gun29 balance 1315, lost 25 (folded)
cajunbeach balance 2035, lost 50 (folded)
taksells balance 2130, lost 50 (folded)
ryba555 balance 1060, lost 855 [ Ah Ad ] [ two pairs, aces and jacks -- Ah,Ad,Jc,Jh,Td ]

*********************************

sorry, but the bisonbison was broken.

Summary: Hero LP with 7 ppls left. Blinds 25/50. The pertinant stacks are all more or less the start level.

There are THREE limps to hero. THREE. ok? there is t225 of "semi dead" money up for grabs. Hero has mid-suited connectors. Hero pushes.

Hate it ? Love it?


My thoughts were ( and i really did think it out, it was a level higher than i usually play)....well, if they are legitimately limping, theres a very good chance i pick up t225 uncontested. And, if i am called, i am prolly still 35% equity against a AQ+, JJ+ range. If someone wants to crunch the numbers, that would be great, but my gut told me that i'd be uncontested 3/4 times, and when called, id still be only a 2:1 dog.

BL'

[Big Limpin']

Also, please dont be results oriented. Yeah, ok, so he flipped AA on a check r/r. That ain't the norm. What im asking is, on average, when 3 limps to you in LP, and you have the famed mid-suited connectors, is that a reasonable push? Meaning, what is the chance you just take it, and when called, what equity do you have against AK/overpairs.

[AbelM]

I like it /images/graemlins/cool.gif

I would like it better though when you're stack is around the 10 BB range, which would make it seem more legit. Now it's quite an obvious bluff and especially at the lower limits you might get one of those "i just don't believe you" callers.

I agree that a mid suited connector is exactly the kind of hand to make a move like this with.

[Freudian]

If you are going to do something like this 87s is a pretty good hand to do it with.

Besides when they start complaining you can always pull out the "but it was sooted" defense.

[Zelcious]

What buyin is this ?
The main problem with this play is not someone limping with AA, it is someone with low or medium pair and decides it's time to gamble with it when you move all in. This will happen quite often, atleast in my experience, especially with 3 limpers. If you're lucky then it's a race otherwise... I could also se AJ AT KQ KJs QJs calling here.
On the other hand, 225 is pretty much compared with your chipstack.

[Big Limpin']

Holla , yeah it did prolly look bluffy, but maybe not so much as it looks at first glance. Hero has 17BB., and to be perfectly honest, i push AK, and AQ in this siutation too. Prolly too much overbet to waste on AA, but still, theres some legit hands i would play in the same manner.

But yeah, i "agree with your agreeement", that 76s and the like are the best hands to take in against the likely calling range.

What does your gut say the probability of being called here is? Mine said 25%. You think lower or higher?

[Big Limpin']

[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to do something like this 87s is a pretty good hand to do it with.

Besides when they start complaining you can always pull out the "but it was sooted" defense.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is, and i did. /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Big Limpin']

OK, it was a 109. I really hope that that counterfeits what you said, otherwise, well, um, you know. I get flamey. And im always happy to get responses to my posts, so...


[ QUOTE ]
The main problem with this play [...]is someone with low or medium pair and decides it's time to gamble with it when you move all in.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, if they "just wanted to race", would they have limped? Maybe if they were UTG, but certainly the 2nd two limpers arent in a "just want to race and gamboool" mindset.

[ QUOTE ]
I could also se AJ AT KQ KJs QJs calling here.


[/ QUOTE ]
I cant. AK and >JJ are the only hand i can see limp/calling. I am willing to be corrected, however, i admit i dont play this level often.

[AbelM]

Dunno, depends heavily on the table.

[runner4life7]

This looks like a PVS to me and I like it, I think it might even be +EV with any 2 as long as you arent playing the 11s or 22s

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
This looks like a PVS to me and I like it, I think it might even be +EV with any 2 as long as you arent playing the 11s or 22s

[/ QUOTE ]

The information that ryba555 limps with monsters after an open-limper may be worth money in the future, providing he is somewhat of a regular.

Of course hero couldn't know that when making the play so it was just an added bonus.

[Big Limpin']

[ QUOTE ]
This looks like a PVS

[/ QUOTE ]
i was waiting for someone to say this. In a way, it really is, in that it doesnt really matter if i make this move from the CO or the SB/BB, once we stack off, position is moot.

[Big Limpin']

The problem... I'm not a regular at this level /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Unarmed]

I'm pretty sure the PVS is -EV whenever an UTG limper is involved.

[Big Limpin']

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure the PVS is -EV whenever an UTG limper is involved.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate? You mean solely for the chance of running into a limp R/R?

Ballpark for me what % of the time a UTG limp is AA/KK (or whatever will call a 17BB push on merit) at the 109s?

[Moonsugar]

This was 109 right? I am not a big fan of the push as I think you get called too much.

What do you think of ryba555?

[Big Limpin']

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think of ryba555?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fack i dunno, im not exactly a regular there, that was a stepup up for me. What do you know about him? He got player noted before the hand was up.

[Moonsugar]

I think he is pretty good. The Russian players have a particularly aggressive style where they make some reckless moves, IMO. He does not play as aggressive as the 'average' russian. I think he plays pretty well, pushes when he should and knows who to call and who not to call. I have been HU with him a lot and he plays HU very well.

[gildwulf]

I like doing plays like this every once and a while at the 25/50 and 50/100 to pick up some extra chips for the bubble, but on the following conditions

1) people involved in the hand aren't donks (i.e. they won't feel 'committed' to the pot and understand that they should wait for a better moment with their AQ or TT).
2) you need at least 2-3 limpers to make it worth the risk for the reward

Looks like you got caught with your pants down and sucked out, boss...and the s00ted excuse always works great.

[Moonsugar]

One more thing: When 3+ people flame it is usually a good sign. So maybe I was wrong in initial assessment.

One of the best plays I ever made I got flamed by whole table in a WSOP Empire tourney master freeroll. People that should have known better.

[Gramps]

(a) I recognize at least one name of the limpers who's somewhat loose and likely to call your push with a semi-wide range of hands;

(b) You have plenty of chips (17 BB), no need to stick your neck out uneccessarily;

(c) Would you push 87s at the 75/150 level for 800 from UTG 7-handed (6 people left to act like here)? That's somewhat borderline, plus you have a bunch of factors working against you in this 25/50 hand:
-The BB is only 50 here vs. 150 in the 75/150 example, so you have plenty more time;
-Your push here screams "I'm stealing with semi-crap" - you will get looked up here often enough with non-premium hands (that you're a sizable dog against);
-3 players to act have money invested already, meaning you're not stealing against 3 random hands, but three hands worthy of a BB investment.
-People do limp big hands to trap loose pushers all the time at 25/50 (chances are it's not, but it's more than a rare occurrence);

(d) I love playing against players that make these push plays. I see crap once, note gets taken, I know I can call with a wider range of hands for a solid +EV play. There's a (more selective) time and place to push crap on limpers, but a much better play on the short(ish) stack is to push a hand that doesn't do great in a multiway pot, but does decently (like 50%>) against the likely range of calling hands. IMO anyway.

[jadducci]

I like the play at the 25/50 level and that is really about it. Higher blinds and you are offering too good of pot odds for someone not to call, and any lower and its not worth the risk imo.

If I saw that kind of raise, I would probably put you on a a medium to low pocket pair and so really the only hands that should be looking to call are jj+ and maybe AK. I don't play the 109's or anything but the odds of someone limping with that kind of premium hand are low enough to make this maybe a slightly +EV move.

Quick side note - How often do you smooth call monsters in this sort of situation. Especially with one call already?? I personally would be raising this 99.9% of the time.

[Zelcious]

I 8-table 30+3 so my experience might not be relevant for the 100+9 but I think people call for several reasons in this spot. Gamble is one or they get upset and want to punish the pusher, curiosity is another. However 87s is a good hand to have if they actually call.

[MegaBet]

That Ryba555 is a trickery-pokery type of player. When he's in the pot I always play it careful.

Damn Russians.

[curtains]

I've managed to get by somehow without ever doing anything like this in over 2500 sit and gos. I'm not a fan, I feel like much better situations come up later for a good player.

[gildwulf]

Give him some credit. He is a dancing bear.

[checkers777]

In my experience you're gonna get a lot of ppl who will call with AT+ and 77+ here just to see wtf you have. I'd only ever consider doing this (but i never actually do it) if my stack was in medium-low range (but not too low since you DONT want callers) , since if you win you are going to be close to your original stack.

[Newt_Buggs]

in my experience you can sometimes pull of plays like this with 3 LP limpers, but without solid reads this is suicidal against 3 EP limpres.

[kuro]

Why not just limp behind? 78s does very well multiway. You flop well and you stack someone vs. pushing and likely going broke or picking up a pretty small pot.

[Fatdogs12]

I agree with Curtins though I don't like this play. WAY too many people left in the hand. I am all for taking risks but only ones that make sense, I think if you are looking at this from a EV standpoint it's a longterm negative. ESP, if you continue to play that way, the regulars are going to pick it up and start to play looser against you, maybe that is a good thing but I think you will have to play with better hands in the long run and loose some bet credibility.