What would you do?

[cnfuzzd]

Party SS game.

A decent tag, 2+2 like stats, opens in EP, three loose players cold call, to you on the button with __________

What do you need to call?

What do you need to raise?

peace

john nickle

[cnfuzzd]

i forgot to mention the blinds are probably kind of loose

peace

john nickle

[rmarotti]

any two suited 56 or higher

[goofball]

I'm playing any pocket pair, suited connectors down to maybe 87, most Axs. AA-JJ and AKs can all be raised solely for value. The loose players in the middle all probably have crap so there's little need to worry about them. Come to think of it, that expands my raising range since even if i lose value to the UTG players I make it back from the 3 loose ep players. I think I'll bump the suited connectors down to 45s, suited gappers probably down to J9 maybe T8. I'm stilld eciding about unsuited broadway cards.

[ArturiusX]

I think I re-raise just about any pocket pair. Discuss.

[toss]

Tell us why first. I usually just call with small PPs here. Is this a leak?

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I re-raise just about any pocket pair. Discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]

Toss: Raising from the button here is important for a few reasons. One, you are getting around 4:1 on your raise, sometimes 5:1 if both blinds call. This isn't exactly enough to flop a set, but when you raise, people often check to you on the button and if you miss with 22 you can just check it down and lose 1BB if you miss on the turn. Also, you are building a big pot so that people are more likely to chase their overcards/inside/backdoor draws to try to take down the huge pot.

I don't know the exact odds of hitting a set by the turn, but my guess is it's about 6:1.

[baronzeus]

I raise with any 2 two high suited cards but cold call with most unsuited big hands. Also, I call with just about any reasonably connected suited cards. (75s is probably the threshold for the worst hand to call here)

[goofball]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I re-raise just about any pocket pair. Discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]

I gave that a few moments thought and I don't think it's optimal for the following reason. At a certain point on the scale, say fro argument 99 and below, we know we're going to have to flop a set to win. If we 3bet we're very likely getting just 4-1 on that extra money. That doesn't look good for us.

If we just call, players after us may call getting 5-1, the SB may call getting ~7or more-1 and the BB will probably call getting at least 11-1. So if we call we get 4-1 odds right there that probably jump up to 6-1 when the blinds come. Not to mention the fantastic relative position we have being between the PF raiser and the loose morons.

[goofball]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise with any 2 two high suited cards but cold call with most unsuited big hands. Also, I call with just about any reasonably connected suited cards. (75s is probably the threshold for the worst hand to call here)

[/ QUOTE ]

so you're coldcallign with KTo, QTo, KJo here? ugh. How often are you going to find yourself with a potentially outkicked top pairish hand in a huge multiway pot getting pummeled by reverse implied odds.

[Chairman Wood]

Baron,
I think from your suggestions in this thread I don't think you know that EP 2+2'er open raised. If he limped and the other's called behind and it was only one to you I think you have some solid suggestions.

[billyjex]

i would call with almost any suited connector, 43s+, 64s+, 69s+, any pair, hands like QJ/JT. this pot is going to be effing huge and i like big pots. obviously broadway hands needed to be played with caution but the pot is likely to be 6-7 handed and you have position. that rules.

[toss]

Wait a minute, are you talking about just raising after they've limped or 3-betting?

[Harv72b]

The exact limit does have a slight effect on my range here, as does the postflop play of the coldcallers, but generally speaking I'm calling with any suited connectors up to 2-gappers, any unsuited connector T9 or higher, any suited ace or king, and any pocket pair. I'm 3-betting with AK-AQs and AA-TT.

The thinking behind 3-betting any pocket pair intrigues me, and I do see the logic. With our position relative to the PFR, it's advantageous to build a big enough pot preflop that the loosies will feel justified calling 2 cold on the flop with overcards or a gutshot or something (assuming any of them wouldn't anyway) if we flop our set and he 3-bets our raise. The loose blinds make it even sweeter, as you could potentially end up with pot odds to justify calling a single bet on the flop to try and turn your 2-outer. Of course, the flip side is that if you build a big enough pot, you make it correct for all sorts of draws to come right with you and potentially beat your set. Something I'll have to think more about when I'm not coming off 8 hours of 6max play. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Dieter01]

I would raise any PP and any suited connector down to 54s. In addition I would raise AKs to A-8s, KQs to K9s, QJs-QTs, AKo to AQo and KQo

I would call with suited one gappers from J9 to 86s.

Fold the rest.

[LImitPlayer]

I reraise with AA KK QQ JJ 1010 AK AKs AQs AJs and cold call with any PP 22-99, A10s KQs KJs K10s QJs Q10s J10s

I'm folding AQ AJ and KQ

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I re-raise just about any pocket pair. Discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]

With small to medium pocket pairs in this situation, I don't think you can either (a) get a free look at the turn or (b) win unimproved often enough to offset the extra 1-2 SBs (since UTG or someone else might cap) that you pay PF (and which hurts your implied odds) and knocking out the blinds (who you would otherwise prefer to stay in if it is going to take a set to win, which is likely the case). For those reasons I just call with those hands.

[dcarlc]

[ QUOTE ]
I reraise with AA KK QQ JJ 1010 AK AKs AQs AJs and cold call with any PP 22-99, A10s KQs KJs K10s QJs Q10s J10s

I'm folding AQ AJ and KQ

[/ QUOTE ]

Might not raise with JJ and TT, I would add the suited connectors down to 56.

I like the folding AQ, AJ, KQ off, Is this standard?

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I re-raise just about any pocket pair. Discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]

Toss: Raising from the button here is important for a few reasons. One, you are getting around 4:1 on your raise, sometimes 5:1 if both blinds call. This isn't exactly enough to flop a set, but when you raise, people often check to you on the button and if you miss with 22 you can just check it down and lose 1BB if you miss on the turn. Also, you are building a big pot so that people are more likely to chase their overcards/inside/backdoor draws to try to take down the huge pot.

I don't know the exact odds of hitting a set by the turn, but my guess is it's about 6:1.

[/ QUOTE ]

It sounds like you're trying to go for a free card preflop here, which seems counterproductive to me, for a few reasons:

1) Instead of paying 2SB to see 3 cards, you're paying 3SB to see 4. That's 50% more money for 33% more card. It hardly seems "free" since the bet size doesn't increase from preflop-flop.

2) If you wanted to do this, couldn't you just CC preflop and then call the PFR's bet on the flop if you have the odds to? Then you ensure you are getting the odds to call, and you don't waste your money if a CCer hits and goes nuts on the flop.

3) You open yourself up to a PF cap while your pot equity is sufficiently low to make it -EV.

I can see the merit in building a big pot, but if we're going to 2 bets 5 handed it's already going to be a big enough pot for most people who CC in MP to chase. And it seems -EV to build a big pot for the 1 time in 7 that you hit, because 6 times out of 7 you'd just pay 1 (sometimes 2) more bets to draw. Isn't that alot of value to make up just from people chasing more in a bigger pot?

Any thoughts?

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
Baron,
I think from your suggestions in this thread I don't think you know that EP 2+2'er open raised. If he limped and the other's called behind and it was only one to you I think you have some solid suggestions.

[/ QUOTE ]


ROFL. My bad. I'll go back to 1st grade and learn how to read.

[baronzeus]

Well, you don't build a big pot by just calling here. The bigger the pot, the better it is for you.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you need to call?


[/ QUOTE ]
Suited connectors/1-gapper type hands. Any pair.

[ QUOTE ]
What do you need to raise?


[/ QUOTE ]
TT+, AJs+.

[baronzeus]

I'm trying to figure out why you're doing this now that I realized what is going on.

There's 3 loose limpers who will call anything, but 3betting knocks out the blinds. You certainly have ~20% equity here and reraising allows you to peel till the turn for your set. But I don't see the benefit in knocking out the blinds when they have very little effect on the equity of your hand. Can you explain?

[Dieter01]

There was an almost identical question asked by Chris Daddy Cool a while back that stirred up a good discussion:

Try this link here to the archives... (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=1429061 &Forum=All_Forums&Words=%2Butg%20%2Bopenraiser.%20 %2Bdon%27t%20%2Bknow%20%2Bjack%20%2Babout%20%2Bhim &Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=1429061&Search=true&wh ere=bodysub&Name=&daterange=1&newerval=4&newertype =y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post1429061)


Has some numbers on how many people you need to raise suited connectors, and when its profitable to call +++

Edit: Noticed the number of posts by some of the people in that thread. Boy have they been busy here since then!

[toss]

Nice find. Makes me feel like were feeding off the fruits of foregone posters.