QQ - My son and I disagree

[bds]

OK - It is up to the forum to resolve a disagreement in our house. Here's the hand in question and river raise is the area about which we disagree. Your thoughts please.

BB is loose aggressive at 62/36/2. UTG is 38/5/.4, so a little too loose and very passive. It was a fun table:)

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (9.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: (9.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 16.25 BB

[lil feller]

I raise this river 100% of the time. If the doofus in the BB has a 3 and we were drawing dead on the turn, so be it.

lf

[ArturiusX]

What a strange hand.

I bet/fold the turn.

[Digs]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise this river 100% of the time

[/ QUOTE ]

ja~

[Eihli]

If you bet the turn, do you check behind on the river if called?

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet/fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bye-bye outs. You are probably a favorite to be checkraised off your hand.

You have very little to fear from a free card here. Almost everything that can go wrong already has. If you happen to be ahead for some reason they probably have very few outs. A typical situation for you to be winning is when you have the best of three second pairs.

If you bet the turn after your previous strong moves they may respect the ace and fold a hand like 88. You actually could do better when you are ahead by checking and hoping to collect a bet on the river, either by calling their bet or betting behind. After you give the free card you have a much better chance of being paid by one-pair hands.

Summary: You rarely have the best hand and checking the best hand is unlikely to be very costly. Therefore the free card issue is minor. Avoiding a checkraise that will cost you your set and board-straight chop outs should take precedence.

[BabyJesus]

Betting the turn is here is terrible. What do you think these two guys check raised with?? I can see something like Ax and BB having 3x a TON of the time. You can't bet representing the Ace and randomly get a hand to fold, there are no hands that will fold to the ace that have QQ beat but a lot of them that will check raise you (ace or three).

I would check turn and fold to a bet on river. BUT given that the Q showed up, hmmmmm

BB made a dumb play by checking the turn if he had a 3, but doesn't mean he doesn't have it here. Sounds like UTG has the Ace. Comes down to if you think BB has the 3 a good amount of the time. If he 3 bets can you fold it? If you can raising isn't too bad I guess, BB could have like A5, 45, or smaller set some of the time. If he does, he will probably just call the river and then you will get UTG to call a bet as well.

[Subfallen]

Do people even *try* to assign hand ranges anymore? Sigh.

[krishanleong]

raise is good.

Krishan

[Noodles]

Very good post, im printing this out as i never reasoon this way,I should start

[J. Sawyer]

against that aggro of a person on that coordinate board you need to raise that river

[bds]

[ QUOTE ]
Do people even *try* to assign hand ranges anymore? Sigh.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please help me with how to go about assigning hand ranges to a player that plays 62 percent of his hands? I am often lost against players like this as they really could have just about anything. In this hand, I thought it was much more likely that UTG had an A with a low kicker that paired on the flop or a mid pocket pair, since he liked the flop, with a mid pocket pair being most likely given his flop play and lack of a preflop raise. I thought that the Q on the river put my hand way ahead of his. I had absolutely no idea what the BB had, but thought he could have any 2 pair, a big ace or even a 3 but had no clue how to discern which of these hands. I thought his 3 bet on the river could easily mean 2 pair or a big Ace that was annoyed at missing the chance to checkraise the turn, but it could also mean that he actually had a 3. Hence, our disagreement about how to play the river.

Thanks for the responses gang.

[wonkadaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
Betting the turn is here is terrible. What do you think these two guys check raised with??

[/ QUOTE ]
AGREE 100%

[ QUOTE ]

I would check turn and fold to a bet on river. BUT given that the Q showed up, hmmmmm

[/ QUOTE ]

DISAGREE 100%

even if the Q doesn't hit you need to call 1 river bet. the pot's decent size and your QQ will be good here way more often than # of times it would need to be to be + EV.

**and as to the original question, i raise the river against this guy. basically, he'd have to be an uber-passive, calling station dufus not to raise this

[Stack]

No one talked about the flop. I guess you all agree with Hero. A "very passive" player check-3bets a flop of 2,4,5r vs. two opponents. Does everyone cap?

I would cap almost everytime, but if I know someone is "very passive", you know, sometimes I have to use that read.

[BabyJesus]

I was saying if the river action is something like BB bets, UTG calls. You're beat here, (if non Q hits on river). Given that the Q hit, you have a bit more of a dilemma. Now that I see BB is pretty laggish, I think river raise is OK and calling the 3 bet is pretty necessary since there is a lot in the pot. BB could put you on something like AQ and 3 bet with his lower set.

[wonkadaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
I was saying if the river action is something like BB bets, UTG calls. You're beat here, (if non Q hits on river).

[/ QUOTE ]

true that (flashback to 2001)