Islams role in a peaceful society

[SheetWise]

A lot of people are defending Islam as a peaceful religion. But when I read the blogs from Iraq and Iran, people complain that the mosques take from them and deliver nothing. There is a divide in the middle east. Here's my question to you, as a peaceful religion;

Where are their hospitals?
Where are their orphanages?
Homes for the elderly?
Safe houses for battered women, maybe?

What do they see as their role in society?

SheetWise

[ptmusic]

Could you start a few more threads about Islam so that the whole front page of the politics forum is filled with only this issue?

Thanks.

-ptmusic

[[censored]]

[ QUOTE ]
Could you start a few more threads about Islam so that the whole front page of the politics forum is filled with only this issue?

Thanks.

-ptmusic

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

Seriously dude start a blog or something.

[SheetWise]

Yeah, you're probably right. Why mess up a Political thread with issues that are stirring up wordwide conflict and division.

So, how about those Yankees?

[Arnfinn Madsen]

Now you missed the target completely. In many of these countries the mosques are providing humanitary support for the citizens. It is one of the ways that they get support from the population, they fill the gaps in the governments' services.

[SheetWise]

I really want to believe that. Any evidence?

[Arnfinn Madsen]

1st hand sources. Several immigrants from moslem countries coming here has told me how it works. As a general principle you are supposed to get aid if you are needy and approach the mosque, the government does not promise you the same. That tradition dates long back. Remember that the richer moslem countries and richer moslem individuals are generous donors of humanitarian aid (barely almost only to other moslems, so it involves discrimination).

[Arnfinn Madsen]

And if you search for mosques on the internet, that on their purpose list is to provide aid.

[[censored]]

What is the 2nd largest Islamic country?

How many people from there are being detained in Gitmo?

How many people from there have been linked to members of Al Queda or any other terrorist group?

Answer that

and then are you so sure in your general point?

[Gamblor]

most of islam's problems are directly caused by the despots and dictatorial leaders of Arab countries.

They simply use the religion to control the masses; if you need anything, you go to the mosque. The mosque is an extension of the government.

[SheetWise]

[ QUOTE ]
And if you search for mosques on the internet, that on their purpose list is to provide aid.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not real interested in their mission statement. Osamas mission is world peace. Prefer to look at what they do.

[ACPlayer]

Generally true of Islamic governments. However, the governments and Mosques are not coupled in countries like Saudi where they are often at odds. Note that Bin Ladin wanted to bring his Afghan trained army to Saudi to protect the Arab lands from Saddam (who is despised by OBL), Saudi chose to go with USA armies much to the horror of the devout OBL, one of many ways that our support of Saudi contributes to 9/11 and terrorism.

[SheetWise]

Nothing I have read actually leads me to believe that pre-WWII Germans were bad people, in general. I think most were peace loving people. But ... they had read Mein Kamp, and had a pretty good idea what their leadership was thinking. When the war broke out, most fell into line and were loyal Germans.

This is what scares me about Islam. They know what is being taught -- they know what is in their scriptures -- and they don't renounce it. When they do, it is half-hearted. I believe that in the event they were called, many would find the calling has no conflict with their religious upbringing and consciense.

[[censored]]

explain India.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And if you search for mosques on the internet, that on their purpose list is to provide aid.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not real interested in their mission statement. Osamas mission is world peace. Prefer to look at what they do.

[/ QUOTE ]

At least there is huge money transfers going on so there must be some substance.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
Nothing I have read actually leads me to believe that pre-WWII Germans were bad people, in general. I think most were peace loving people. But ... they had read Mein Kamp, and had a pretty good idea what their leadership was thinking. When the war broke out, most fell into line and were loyal Germans.

This is what scares me about Islam. They know what is being taught -- they know what is in their scriptures -- and they don't renounce it. When they do, it is half-hearted. I believe that in the event they were called, many would find the calling has no conflict with their religious upbringing and consciense.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, this part is scary. It give to much power to the leaders which can be abused. But remember that i.e. the American military is built up by the same principle. Do what you are told, it serves a bigger cause.

When a kurd leader friendly to the US makes a trade-off with US leaders agreeing that some off his political opponents will be attacked, does the pilot who fires the missile question the morality of the attack? (this happened)

[Dov]

[ QUOTE ]
does the pilot who fires the missile question the morality of the attack?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes they do. They can also refuse an order and not be executed for it along with their entire family.

In addition, in the US, these kinds of things are discussed and debated all the time by everyone. There are repercussions to abuse of power. This is not the case in a totalitarian state. It is reasonable for an American pilot who does have some concern with a particular order to assume that quite a bit of discussion has already taken place concerning his mission, particularly if it is a sensitive one. This assumption may not be possible for soldiers of other armies.

one thing you can't knock islam on is the way they treat the elderly. in predominantly muslim countries, adults take care of their aging parents, regardless. there are fewer nursing homes because it is considered disgraceful to put ones parents in a home. countries like syria, jordan, lebanon, iran all have as many hospitals as one could expect from there per capita gnp's. you think that predominantly christian african countires have better facilities?

[SheetWise]

in48092 -

My point was there role in our society. I can't think of any other religion that doesn't build and support facilities that are for the good of the secular community. I see mosques being built, but nothing for the community. Noting that, I would propose they are not and do not wish to assimilate.

[ QUOTE ]
countries like syria, jordan, lebanon, iran all have as many hospitals as one could expect from there per capita gnp's

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder if an American would be admitted. How about a Jew? If they build facilities that require you pass a religious test to utilize, that's no different than building another mosque.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

Sensing some prejudice /images/graemlins/smile.gif. In general moslems feel responsibility for the society, Sheetwise. You don't have to pass any religious tests. Most non-moslem travelers to moslem countries comes back and speaks about their incredible friendliness towards their guests. Tehran and Damaskus, both in the Axis of evil, are held as some of the most friendly cities to visit globally. Most mosques are also open to non-believers.

[kurto]

Try reading the book "The Kite Runner."

Though it might blow your mind... within the great story (written by an Afghanistanee) you will get a look at Afghanistan prior to the wars. Prior to the Taliban. Most importantly, it will perhaps gently remind you that there is not one viewpoint/sect in the religion. You seem to think that all the muslims in the world believe what the fanatics are teaching. They are hated and reviled by Muslims throughout the world.

And to top it off, its just a great book.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

Lonely Planet guide to Iran:

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Visitors will find it hard to reconcile their own experiences with the pronouncements that Iran is part of an 'axis of evil'.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you google for travel journals, you will find travelers praising the way they were treated in the moslem world.

[SheetWise]

Thank you. I will read your suggestions.
I might be spending too much time reading middle east blogs ...

[Dov]

[ QUOTE ]
You seem to think that all the muslims in the world believe what the fanatics are teaching. They are hated and reviled by Muslims throughout the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, this is not what the polls are telling us. See the other thread for more details.

Secondly, where is all the Islamic outcry? The anti-american stuff is easy to see. Where is the equivalent rhetoric against fundamentalists?

If things are as you say, then you should have no problem explaining why it isn't so obvious to everyone else.

[chabibi]

[ QUOTE ]
Remember that the richer moslem countries and richer moslem individuals are generous donors of humanitarian aid (barely almost only to other moslems, so it involves discrimination).

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess indonesia is the wrong kind of muslim country, since the richer arab states gave almost nothing to tsunami relief

[sam h]

You are wrong. One of the reasons that Islamic instituions play such a major role in many Middle Eastern countries is that they provide social and humanitarian services in contexts where the state is very weak.