I Feel Like I Should Know How To Play This...

[ML4L]

Hey all,

This one might be kinda straightforward, but for some reason, it isn't sitting well with me. AZK, just move it to small stakes if it would be better suited for there... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Stars 5/10. I haven't been at the table long, so no real reads... I ($1000) limp in EP with 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gif. MP ($500) limps, and CO ($1200) limps as well. SB folds, and BB checks. 4 to the flop, which comes:

7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB checks, I bet $40, MP folds, LP calls. I think I played with LP a few months ago and that he's slightly LAG, but again, I wouldn't say that I have a real read on him... Anyway, the turn comes:

T /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I check, LP bets $80, I make it $300, LP thinks for a few seconds and calls. River comes:

J /images/graemlins/club.gif

I push for $650, LP folds fairly quickly.

My main concern is that, even though I managed to get a lot of money in the middle, I'm not sure whether or not I would be able to get away on the river if an ugly card hit, so my opponent might not be making a mistake by calling my check-raise on the turn (or, if he is making a mistake, it probably isn't a big one).

Anyway, comments on all streets are appreciated.

ML4L

[KaneKungFu123]

i like your line just fine.

[durron597]

I wonder if you should check the river to induce a bluff from a busted flush draw (you said your opponent is LAG). I'm just trying to figure out what he would call both the flop and turn with that isn't a draw? His most likely hand IMO is A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

Though I wonder if my opinion is skewed by the fact that I know what the river action is.

[coltrane]

hmmm.....couple of comments.....one, I'd have brought it in for a raise (maybe like $30) preflop......two, I might've overbet the flop (which is even nicer if there's more money in there preflop)......three, I don't like the turn checkraise without a read.....what are you putting villain on?.....generally by checkraising that turn I think you put the opponent in a position where he can't make a mistake.....it's pretty bad if he checks behind and you give him a freebee, it's pretty bad if he gets away from a pretty decent made hand that might've called you down had you bet turn/river, it's pretty bad if he flopped the nuts and you just bloated the pot for him......also, once you decide to checkraise - you might as well just checkraise more and overbet the pot because if he's gonna dump any sh!tty made hand to $300 then it makes no difference if you bet $400 or $500 and if he has a good draw you might as well commit yourself and not give him implied odds and just hope he makes a bad call/puts you on a semi-bluff......all in all, I think my line would've been: bring it in for $30 preflop, overbet the flop, overbet the turn......but I know how these 100BB stacks suck /images/graemlins/frown.gif ........

[neon]

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if you should check the river to induce a bluff from a busted flush draw (you said your opponent is LAG). I'm just trying to figure out what he would call both the flop and turn with that isn't a draw? His most likely hand IMO is A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

Though I wonder if my opinion is skewed by the fact that I know what the river action is.

[/ QUOTE ]

4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, A /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, A /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, A /images/graemlins/heart.gif10/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 34s, 88 and 99 all make a decent amount of sense as well, although I suppose he isn't folding bottom two "quickly" to your river push.

I'm not sure how much I like your turn CR. I don't think you want to risk a free card here.

Also, and my thinking very well may be skewed by the knowledge that villain "folded quickly" to your river push, but I think I like checking the river to induce a bluff. I mean, this guy's raising 1010 and JJ just about every time prefop, right? So the only hand that's beating you by the river that wasn't already is 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

Yes, you may miss out on some value from second-best made hands that may pay you off on the river, but I think you would've heard from 33/44 by now, no?

[BobboFitos]

mike,

this looks real good. i dont know why it didn't sit well with you.

other people are saying to check/call (well, move in I assume the rest of your money) on the river, and that looks good. in the heat of the hand i probably push, too, but isn't villain with a made hand put into a raise/fold spot on the turn once you c/r? he cant just call unless he plans to call all rivers, in which case he must believe your bluff frequency (and general "move making frequency," to c/r semi the turn) is huge.

so sets/twopairs (which could call the all in) push themselves on the turn, so it leaves only weak hands at the end (busted draws) that (esp. if he's a LAG) will bluff at the pot. so c/r al in on the riv.

As said, in the heat I play it the same (or just bet again on the turn) so... nh.

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey all,

This one might be kinda straightforward, but for some reason, it isn't sitting well with me. AZK, just move it to small stakes if it would be better suited for there... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Stars 5/10. I haven't been at the table long, so no real reads... I ($1000) limp in EP with 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gif. MP ($500) limps, and CO ($1200) limps as well. SB folds, and BB checks. 4 to the flop, which comes:

7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB checks, I bet $40, MP folds, LP calls. I think I played with LP a few months ago and that he's slightly LAG, but again, I wouldn't say that I have a real read on him... Anyway, the turn comes:

T /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I check, LP bets $80, I make it $300, LP thinks for a few seconds and calls. River comes:

J /images/graemlins/club.gif

I push for $650, LP folds fairly quickly.

My main concern is that, even though I managed to get a lot of money in the middle, I'm not sure whether or not I would be able to get away on the river if an ugly card hit, so my opponent might not be making a mistake by calling my check-raise on the turn (or, if he is making a mistake, it probably isn't a big one).

Anyway, comments on all streets are appreciated.

ML4L

[/ QUOTE ]

remember his hand has 2 bad outs and 7 good ones on the turn, so he's making a nice mistake in calling the 300.

i like a river lead on an ace or a board pairing heart. otherwise check/call makes more i think.

fim

[-Skeme-]

What about a small weak lead on the river? I still think it can induce a bluff from LAG with a missed draw and might get called by something. Kinda covers both angles..

[aggie]

I bet this turn (~100). The negative to this is it let's villian get away when he was screwing around with overcards. But i think an aggressive villian is going to raise you fairly often on this turn. It looks like a scare card for you. He might get frisky with his flush draw (or a 10) on the turn and raise which will allow you to get it allin. It also prevents him from taking a free card with a draw.

[cero_z]

Hi Mike,

I like it fine for sure up to the turn. The turn is pretty good, too, but here are my other thoughts:

I guess you need to decide what kind of guy you're most likely to be dealing with. Is he the kind who will often have almost nothing here (one pair or less), and who you therefore need to trap into putting the money in before you? Or, is he the type who probably has a significant number of outs in this situation, or who may even have a pretty good made hand already? I think most players online (and moreso on Stars) fit the 2nd description, so I would checkraise a little more than you did, to more like 400.

This helps with the problem of leaving too much headroom in your stack for him when he hits a draw, but makes getting away from it when he has you beat harder (actually impossible). This is a fine tradeoff IMO; online, I don't think we have the luxury of being able to get away from this hand if he flopped a straight or turned 3 Tens. One thing you can do to mitigate your losses in this event is to do what you did--get your money in on the turn, so you have quite a few outs if he has a straight.

Given your turn play, I think a push on the river was fine. Either that, or a very small value bet (100 bucks). Anything in between looks too crystal-clear as a big hand; why are you saving 100 or 150, you know?

[the 9]

[ QUOTE ]
But i think an aggressive villian is going to raise you fairly often on this turn. It looks like a scare card for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I'm not reading it right but I'm not sure why the turn could be seen as a scare card? Looks like a blank to me

In response to OP who is a much better player than myself, if the villain thinks he will get paid if his (non pairing) flush card hits then he is still making a mistake (this is the 1200 stack right?) by calling. I make it he's getting 20% implied pot odds with a 15% shot, although my math could be wrong /images/graemlins/blush.gif

I do like your line as well, although obviously not vs a passive player. It looks a bit like a draw or a hand like 88/99 when you check the turn and you get some money you may not have got by leading. It also may tempt some LAG's into semi bluffing over the top with the flush draw themselves, although you're prob more likely to see it with deeper stacks.

JM 2c

I like the line on the flop and turn but I'm just not sure if a hand you're beating calls the river, unless they flopped a set and if he is LAGish I doubt he hit a set. So, the only hand I see calling is a backdoored straight. I bet 300 again and hope he takes it as a sign of weakness.

[Kirkrrr]

A half-pot (300ish) value bet is best, IMO. It may induce a bluff from a busted draw and, if your opponent is LAG enough, you get paid off by worse hands as well.

Kirk R.

[BadVoodooX]

I like it fine up until the river push. I think the river push makes it too easy for him to get away from good but not great hands like a flopped 2 pair or a slowplayed overpair and doesn't give a busted draw a chance to bluff at it. The only thing you get called by with this bet is likely a set or a flopped straight and those hands are reraising you on the river anyway. I don't see how he can put you on anything other than a set here after that river push. He could easily be reading your turn CR as an overpair you were trying to trap with so your river lead should be consistent with that. If he's aggro enough he might try to push you off of it if you put out a weak $100-150 lead that looks like a blocking bet. I don't like much more than $100-150 because it doesn't give him enough left to come over you for enough to make it reasonable that you'd lay down AA.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

Do most of you have good results with these river overbets? They just never seem to work for me. Most of my river value betting is somewhere between 2/5-2/3 of the pot.

[ML4L]

Hey all,

Thanks for the replies. Here are some thoughts that I have:

Preflop: Sometimes I'll raise, but I usually just limp. 100 BB stacks are a pain in the ass... If the game is just a little deeper, I'll open everytime here. I think the real reason that I usually limp rather than raise is because the players aren't good enough that I need to raise small/medium pairs and because limping is easier when multitabling... Oh well.

Flop: Someone suggested an overbet, which I actually like in retrospect. I doubt that many hands call $40 and fold for $60, and that extra little bit helps me escalate the pot-size quicker...

Turn: I'm still a little torn on this street. I think that leading might be the way to go. For one, he might make a semibluff raise with 9h8h or Thxh or something. Two, if he has a hand that he slowplayed on the flop, I think bet-raise-push gets the money in easier given the stack sizes. Three, as people mentioned, I don't risk the free card. Four, I think that I am more likely to induce a river bluff after a bet than a check-raise.

Given that I check-raised, I also like the idea of raising a little more. Again, my big concern about this line is that he isn't making a mistake (to those who say he only had seven outs, I wouldn't be surprised if a gutshot were involved, giving him ten). $350-$400 should be enough to ensure that he's making a mistake by calling, plus it makes the river a little simpler since I don't think I'm getting away regardless... But, I think that the weird stack size means that this might need to be a bet rather than check-raise.

River: Although I had actually felt OK about my all-in, after reading the comments, I agree that this might be the street that I butchered rather than the turn. I think that a lead of $150 or a check probably nets more than what I did. I didn't want two pair to check behind, but I really think that a draw is so much more likely than a made hand, in retrospect. A weak lead will get paid if he hit a jack and might induce a bluff. Again, a weakness in my turn line is that it is so strong that he will probably not bluff the river if I check.

Anyway, not the most interesting hand in the world, but there was at least a little food for thought...

Mike