Moral Dilemma

[MrFeelNothin]

I'll try to keep this short, here goes...

So I am sitting at a soft soft 5/10 game a few nights ago, but the cards are cold and I'm down about 30 BB, when I get a message via the Party Invite to Table function. It is from another player at the table, we will call him TightieMcWhitie. The guy is trying his darndest to beat the game, but maaaan is he weak-tight. Playing 18/10 preflop, very weak postflop basically never raising without the virtual nuts.

Anyways, the gist of Tightie's message is that I seem like a good guy and he doesn't usually give advice, but he thinks a couple articles on pokerpages.com could help me out. I'll link the articles, Nick Eisel (http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archives/nick-eisel03.htm)

I'm sure this writer beats the games, but his advice is way too tight in many situations and our friend Tightie seems to have taken the advice to heart.

So I see two potential lines in this situation, and I am clueless as to which was right...

A. The guy was trying to help me become a winning player, I should return the favor. Refer him to 2+2 and help him truly learn how to play poker.

B. Thank him very much for his generosity and say the articles were very helpful. Continue with life, we don't need another TAG sucking money out of the games.

FWIW, there is no way the guy beats the game right now.

[naphand]

WWDuff-ManD?

I had a player send me a message on Party this week that said simply "2+2 sucks".

There is only one player who knows my Party handle for sure and, it wasn't him (I suspect he may have guessed from may play (hahaha) or my handle, it is not particularly cunning).

So I immediately responded with:

"What's 2+2?"

[MrFeelNothin]

So Im guessing you would go with B. I expected nothing less naphand.

Just for clarification, the guy who messaged me definitely is unaware of 2+2. Or at least is unaware that his style of play is not ideal.

[Alobar]

dude, the fact you are even contemplaiting this question raises serious red flags about your mental capacity as a poker player.

The answer is B

You can put me down on record as saying anyone who says A in this thread, or even thinks about saying A in this thread, is a complete moron

no offense

[MrFeelNothin]

In what way does that raise serious red flags?

How did all of you out there find your way to 2+2? I'm sure the majority were referred by SOMEBODY.

Even if I told him about 2+2, hes not going to improve immediately I can tell you that much. And the likelihood of him ever improving enough to reach levels above the 5/10 game is very very low.

I think anybody who looks at things with such a constricted line of thought is a complete moron. The guy helped me out and tried to discuss strategy with me for chrissakes. What happened to common courtesy and decency?

no offense.

[Poldi]

turn chat off.. problem solved /images/graemlins/smile.gif

If he is really nice, I might tell him when I expect not to play vs him in the future. Usually I wouldnt though.

[Nietzsche]

[ QUOTE ]
dude, the fact you are even contemplaiting this question raises serious red flags about your mental capacity as a poker player.

The answer is B

You can put me down on record as saying anyone who says A in this thread, or even thinks about saying A in this thread, is a complete moron

no offense

[/ QUOTE ]

[Nietzsche]

[ QUOTE ]
I think anybody who looks at things with such a constricted line of thought is a complete moron. The guy helped me out and tried to discuss strategy with me for chrissakes. What happened to common courtesy and decency?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you want to train the competition? If you know more than the competition you win.

Telling a guy like that about twoplustwo is outright dangerous - he seems to be the kind that would spread the advice given here to anyone.

[MrFeelNothin]

You do realize that this is a public forum correct?

With thousands and thousands of members?

Just because you happened to stumble across it, you now have the right to be an elitist prick?

Hey, you seem kind of new here. Out of curiosity, how did you find your way into the secret society?

[wowacedude]

I pick B without hesitation.

[Fiddler]

I pick B. If he is trying to improve he'll eventually buy a book and find his way here. That was how I found 2+2, in the recommended reading section of Lee Jones' book. Or he'll just add a couple of words to his Google search.

[Nietzsche]

Hey relax, pal. Just giving my point of view here.

I honestly cannot understand why you want to share your knowledge with some random guy, that's all.

How I found this site? I can't remember exactly, I think it was from a link from another site.

[MrFeelNothin]

Well this thread is pretty pointless now, thanks for being a pompous prick Alobar.

I didnt even think about telling him about 2+2 until he messaged me back AGAIN today asking if I liked the articles and if I was doing better.

That made me feel like a dick. Not enough of a dick to help him, but a dick nonetheless.

Anyways, the only people I have ever told about 2+2 were 2 of my close friends who I started in poker. But I do think there is an elitist attitude here that is not really warranted. I'm not in favor of making the games tougher, but even if every player in the world knew about 2+2, I would be unconcerned with my ability to beat the game. The average person is just not smart enough or disciplined enough to play winning poker, poker forum be damned.

[MrFeelNothin]

Nothing personal. Lemmings just piss me off. Dont read too deep into anything I say.

[MrFeelNothin]

Everyone on this forum is a random guy to me.

Why should the fact that someone happened to find his/her way to this site make it so much better to share information with him?

[sethypooh21]

[ QUOTE ]
dude, the fact you are even contemplaiting this question raises serious red flags about your mental capacity as a poker player.

The answer is B

You can put me down on record as saying anyone who says A in this thread, or even thinks about saying A in this thread, is a complete moron

no offense

[/ QUOTE ]

Your point is well taken. We all eat plenty of red meat here. However, just because we are playing for profit doesn't mean we sacrifice our humanity. There are enough fish that giving one guy advice (especially if solicited..." is not going to dry up the pond.

That being said, to paraphrase Sam Jackson at the end of Die Hard 3: "F'em, let em cook..." Option B is best an its not close. Do you see why?

[Schneids]

For real I choose A and yes I've read all the responses to this thread. Flame away.

[MrFeelNothin]

[ QUOTE ]
For real I choose A and yes I've read all the responses to this thread. Flame away.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh-oh, I think it just got interesting.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]


You can put me down on record as saying anyone who says A in this thread, or even thinks about saying A in this thread, is a complete moron


[/ QUOTE ]

Just one counter-argument:

You probably make posts that help others more than yourself. Why do you do it? Because you know others are here for the same purpose as you are; to improve their poker games through discussion of ideas.

This guy obviously is at least _interested_ in improving his game, and seems like a nice enough feller. I'd tell him to try this forum out because of that. Who knows, maybe he'll develop his game and become top form and I'll be hoping he answers each and everyone of my posts. He certainly seems frienly enough that if this forum helped his game tons he'd return the favor.

I'd be more concerned about "hiding" the forum from people who are going to improve and then totally vanish forever.

[Nietzsche]

[ QUOTE ]
Lemmings just piss me off.

[/ QUOTE ]
You ask a question. I give you my opinion. Now I am a lemming. And you are a very charming guy.

[MrFeelNothin]

I wasnt calling you a lemming. I just was attempting to delve deeper into your opinion because I didnt want to hear more of the parrotted responses I expected after alobar put down what I thought was the final word on the subject. I apologize for offending you, internet communication can be very difficult when things are taken too literally. Sorry.

Back to the issue at hand...

[ghostface]

[ QUOTE ]
dude, the fact you are even contemplaiting this question raises serious red flags about your mental capacity as a poker player.

The answer is B

You can put me down on record as saying anyone who says A in this thread, or even thinks about saying A in this thread, is a complete moran

no offense

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[RunDownHouse]

I go with B as well. Aside from points like you'll be training your competition, this guy seems like he might be a zealot about training lots more people by sending them links, etc, I just can't particularly be bothered to help this guy out. Other than a "Thanks" after he sent me his link, I doubt I'd respond to him again in any meaningful way.

But I'm fairly misanthropic to start with.

[irishpint]

[ QUOTE ]


Anyways, the only people I have ever told about 2+2 were 2 of my close friends who I started in poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

he lies! it's a link in his facebook profile!

as for me. first time he sends me the link i'd thank him. second time when he asks how it went i think i'd enlighten him on the ways of the winners. i got here because someone told me, it seems like i should be expected to return the favor. great point mentioning that everyone here is just as random as the guy you were playing online. AND it's a public forum- besides, there are still LOTS of losing players here (even if they wont admit it.)

[MrFeelNothin]

To sum up:

Those in favor of-

A- Schneids, irishpint(one of two people i referred here, the other doesnt post)

B- Me(maybe), Alobar, everyone agreeing with Alobar

[tolbiny]

C. Ask him to play heads up- that way you can "learn" from him directly.

[irishpint]

[ QUOTE ]
C. Ask him to play heads up- that way you can "learn" from him directly.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is funny since i was challenged yesterday by a guy who then bought in for his entire BR...$316 (this was 1/2 6max). I then loaded up to $1500 and took a good portion of his (in the ring game, he decided agaisnt a headsup match because, and he said he wanted to let others have some of my money- wasn't fair for him to take it all)

[d10]

I'll usually choose B. Only way I choose A is if I just don't feel like putting forth the effort of trying to help. I treat most people the way they treat me. I'll be polite to those who are polite to me and an ass to those who are an ass to me. At this site where everyone is trying to help me improve my game I will help anyone else try to improve their game, and at the table where everyone is trying to take my money I will try to take all of their money. If someone sends me a link to a site in an effort to help me, I'll give them a link to a site which will help them. I think that's pretty standard.

[Alobar]

I've actually thought about that argument before, and I came to the realization, that I get waaaay more outta replying to peoples posts than they get from reading my replys. If I didn't feel that way, I honestly would have stopped replying to posts and just become one of the hundreds of people that lurk on here. I suppose that brings up interesting "game preservation" arguments, and if things were different maybe that would have to be factored into my decision.

I dunno, I take the mentality that I do this for a living and I only eat/payrent/buyshinythings when other people make more mistakes at this game than I do. So I don't go around trying to make every fish a better player. I'm in the jack straus "id bust my own grandmother if she was at the table" camp.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
Well this thread is pretty pointless now, thanks for being a pompous prick Alobar.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow dude, you need to lighten up. Just because I over express my opinions sometimes, does not ruin your thread. Or maybe I just have more respect for the people who post here, and realize they arent all lemmings and it doesnt matter what I say, it isnt going to keep anyone from expressing what they want to say.

[2ndGoat]

I think one big factor is going unsaid- any serious contributor to the forum increases the value to everyone else, mitigating the loss from having 1 more tough player in your game.

Even without this factor, I'd still tell someone in this situation. My life is about more than just EV. Sorry if that inconveniences those of you for whom EV is everything.

Some quantitative analysis-
One player going from 0B/100 to 1.5 BB/100 at 4 tables when there are 60 tables going costs the game an average of .1BB/100 while they're there. But let's say out of the average player you would talk to, 30% actually go to the forums, only the top end gets to the 1.5/4 rate and the results scale upwards evenly from 0 to 1.5 throughout that 30%. Now you're costing the game .015BB/100, and only during the hours they're playing (obviously costs more during off-peak hours). I'm not presenting this to prove a point, just providing data.

2nd

[Femto]

I pick option C. Teach him how bad he is by challenging him to a HU match and taking every last cent.

[naphand]

For once its not me getting steamed over questions of morality or is this a discussion of ethics?

The term "morality" refers to a code of conduct put forward by a society or some other group, such as a religion, usually based on some founding principles.

"Ethics" are harder to define, but IMO refer to much more personal philosophy, based on observation of human behaviour and its consequences.

Wrong forum...

<font color=" red">I am with Schneids on this one.</font>

A few people directed here out of the 1,000's who start playing each week is nothing to get worried about. For each 100 who come to this forum 80 will gain very little from it and perhaps 1-2 will becomes reasonable players.

Players who are intelligent and want to improve will find their own way regardless of what we say. There are those who overestimate the power of this forum, it is not the poker-equivalent of the philosopher's stone. You cannot polish a turd etc.

That said...

When I first started playing poker online (5-stud on Ladbrokes) having only previously played at school/college, two players were chatting in a game and one mentioned "PokerTracker". When I stopped playing I googled it and bought it soon after. Did it help? Certainly. Would I have found it anyway? Certainly. Draw your own conclusions.

[Digs]

Well, I've referred my rl friends here, but as far as online play, I have to hold back the urge to let people know you can check hand histories by clicking the little thing in the upper right hand corner sometimes.

So yea, B here :/

But I see the validity in A, helping fellow humans always feels good, even if you're competing with them in a game.

I.e. in non $ games (not poker, games like ping-pong, warcraft etc) I'll point out my friends weaknesses I'm exploiting and they'll point out mine, helps us both get better.

So yea, I see both ways~

[Nigel]

A. Easy.

Nigel

[smartalecc5]

I gotta voice my opinion, B.

[bds]

I vote A.

[Monty Cantsin]

Personally, I think if you want to help a guy like that improve his game it's far more helpful/dangerous to suggest he read SSHE than to send him here.

/mc

[MrFeelNothin]

I overexpress my opinions sometimes as well.

But seriously, after your post I doubt anyone would have answered the other way if Schneids, someone with a lot of forum respect who des what he wants to, had not come along and voiced a very well thought out opinion.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
I overexpress my opinions sometimes as well.

But seriously, after your post I doubt anyone would have answered the other way if Schneids, someone with a lot of forum respect who des what he wants to, had not come along and voiced a very well thought out opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope that statement isnt true. Like I said, I honestly don't belive my loud mouth would keep anyone here from saying whatever it is they wanted to say, and that it would take someone like schneids to make it otherwise. He has about a million times more respect around here than I'll ever have, but if he had said anyone who says B is a moron, I wouldnt have hesitated to express my opposite opinion, and I don't think others would have as well.

And if I'm wrong, well I think thats pretty sad then.

[Danenania]

Alobar hits us. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[RunDownHouse]

Everyone think of your favorite buddylister, the guy you pray you can sit with every session. Out of nowhere, he asks you if you have any advice for him, or can help him out. Do you really link him here?

[StellarWind]

I fail to see the dilemma.

Did you ask for his help? Are you friends? Are you members of some community where people are supposed to help each other?

It's pretty obvious that you don't owe this person any help improving his game. He's your opponent in a poker game. You have an obligation to play the game fairly and very little else.

All of this means ... you can do whatever you want. Help him if you want to. Don't help him if you don't want to. There is no moral choice to be made.

[EvanJC]

i disagree with this. these forums have taught me 13221lk3jl132 times what SSHE did, and SSHE was a great poker book.

[krishanleong]

I vote who cares.

FWIW I know of Nick and he could do very well at the game if he learns of 2+2. He is an ex MTG player.

Krishan

[Monty Cantsin]

[ QUOTE ]
i disagree with this. these forums have taught me 13221lk3jl132 times what SSHE did, and SSHE was a great poker book.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, me too. But we're not necessarily a good sample. Not everyone has, or can develop, the particular skills of getting the best value out of the forums. Think about a random person dropped into this chaos of conflicting advice, unspoken conventions, confusing buzzwords/acronyms/numerical reads and general As-the-Flop-Turns psychodrama. What percentage of them is going to have the persistence and dedication and lack of life needed to pull the golden needles out of the blatherstack?

SSHE, on the other hand, is an articulate condensation of the forums' core conventional wisdom and approach with 100% less noise.

No question that these forums provide a deeper and ultimately more advanced form of engagement and continuing education, but if my goal was to help them improve their game I would always start a 2+2 virgin off with the fundamentals as expressed in SSHE, HFAP, TOP, etc.

/mc

[4thstreetpete]

If he was legitamently trying to be nice and help you then it wouldn't be close. I would definately chose A to return the favour to help his game.

[Schneids]

The other thing to consider in this question is this:

The guy thinks you need help. Now, a few of us propose to turn it around on him and offer our own advice. Most people who feel superior to someone (in the case of this guy he must believe he's better if he's trying to flat-out show you his "secrets") rarely accept advice from those they consider inferior.

So, I think most the people would not even listen to you any way, yet I rest better knowing I did the right thing.

For the record, I would help someone like that at 5/10, but at 100/200 if a fish was asking me for help or the situation was identical I would probably find a way to avoid giving him any specific help other than some vague stuff like "there are books and sites you can find." Basically, different size player-pool equates to different circumstances for me, so I'm not a total end-all "nice guy."

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
dude, the fact you are even contemplaiting this question raises serious red flags about your mental capacity as a poker player.

The answer is B

You can put me down on record as saying anyone who says A in this thread, or even thinks about saying A in this thread, is a complete moron

[/ QUOTE ]
Successful poker players recognize their own limitations and account for them. They don't routinely put themselves in situations where they cannot succeed because of their own weaknesses. In some sense this is the only trait that a winning player absolutely cannot do without.

Winning poker players are not robots devoid of human emotions. It can be hard for many players to constantly exploit the weak without paying a price. Trying to be the perfect robot can backfire badly in the long run. Doing this little altruistic thing for one of many thousands of online opponents has virtually no impact on EV in the long run. If harmless little social gestures like this one allow a player to feel better about himself and remain productive over a long period of time, then they are well worth it.

OP really should do whatever he wants and not worry about it. He doesn't owe this player anything. Equally well he doesn't owe it to us to keep this guy in the dark. It's his choice and I advise him not to overthink it. Do what comes naturally and move on.

[kidcolin]

I agree that this isn't really much a moral dilemna. It's one guy. Tell him whatever you feel like. If you don't tell him about 2+2, you're not a prick. If you tell him about it, big deal.

[Vroomster]

I'd choose A.
I don't go out of my way to help players, but if anyone is nice enough to offer me advice, I appreciate the thought and am willing to offer some in return. Helping him out by making him a better player will not seriously impact the number of fish in the pond (which is growing anyways).

[wheelz]

what's MTG?

i would go with B

[mungpo]

Magic The Gathering

[GetThere1Time]

[ QUOTE ]
I vote who cares.

FWIW I know of Nick and he could do very well at the game if he learns of 2+2. He is an ex MTG player.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to get off the subject but I find that a lot of talented MTG players who find poker do well. I know he(Nick) and a few other guys from Team CMU magic do quite well for themselves playing poker. I don't know him personally. This is mostly hearsay. I am/was a Pitt student and Carnegie Mellon is a few blocks away from me and information travels fast in the Pittsburgh poker underground.

[GetThere1Time]

I don't think either is wrong. I opt for B because getting into a discussion with a stranger about poker strategy is a terrible and frustrating experience.

Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig. --- Paul Dickson

That being said, if players make it to this site its not the end of the universe. A lot of people misuse 2+2 or lack the understanding or dedication to use this forum to improve their poker. I know this first hand.

I've been lurking for a long time. I started by reading the Mid-High forum and misinterpreting everything or not understanding it at all. I thought I could go there and learn and get involved since I play 10/20, 15/30, and 20/40 locally. Little did I know, that these games played more like a Party 2/4(The limit games in Pittsburgh are that good. /images/graemlins/cool.gif) I'd always get discouraged when my posts would be flamed or when I couldn't understand the concepts of higher limit thinking so I'd never improve and just come back every now and then to try; futily. I think there are a lot of people like this who view/post at all the 2+2 forums. Now, I'm not complaining by any means about my experiences. If at all, I like the shrewedness of a lot of 2+2. It toughens your skin and trains you into REALLY thinking before you write a post.

A little while back I'd realized that to improve my game I needed to start with the basics so I went to Small Stakes and just read every day. Eventually, I started to make a post or two. Around 150 posts I felt kind of comfy and I started playing 5/10 6 max so I started posting in HUSH and, here I am, a better card player for it all. Hopefully one day I'll be playing bigger and I'll start my posting in mid-high stakes but I don't feel I've quite graduated yet. Not even close.

I guess my point of this long-winded story about myself is that there are tons of people who won't get better even when they find 2+2. I was one of these people. I really hope I'm not still /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ALL1N]

[ QUOTE ]
Not to get off the subject but I find that a lot of talented MTG players who find poker do well

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh MTG!! I held the record for youngest grand prix winner for a while (may or may not have been broken). Are youse all impressed!?!?!