Big Draw to the Nuts

[Barry]

Another fun hand at a pretty tough $2/4 PP table.

I'm in CO, Stu Pidasso has the button and kdog is BB.

I get Ah 8h.

UTG calls, UTG+1 Raises, 1 EP and 1 MP call, I call, as does the button, BB, and UTG. 7 players and $29 in the pot.

Flop is 6h 3h Qs giving me a nut flush draw. Checked to the pre-flop raiser who bets, EP folds, MP raise, I call, button folds, BB checkraises, UTG calls, UTG+1 caps, everybody calls. I would have semi-bluff raised if MP didn't, but didn't think that 3 betting here made any sense with a draw. Should I have 3 bet? 5 players still in a pot that has grown to $69 or just over 17 BB.

Turn is 7c [6h 3h Qs] No help. BB bets, all call. Everybody must have been worn out from the flop betting. Still 5 players and $89 (22 BB) in the pot.

River is Th [7c 6h 3h Qs] No SF possible, I have the nuts, checked to MP who bets, he must have a smaller flush. I thought about calling to give the 3 remaining players to act the chance to overcall, but decided that raising would be the most profitable play. BB folded, UTG cold called, EP folded and MP called. As such I did do as well if everybody called. Would have anybody have just called here? I win a $110 (27 BB) pot.

UTG had a flopped set of 3's, kdog (BB) later told me he had AA for 4th place, MP had a K high flush. UTG+1 probably had AQ or KK. I believe that If the BB 3 bets his AA pre-flop, most likely, I'm out of there along with MP and UTG and he would have won. Any thoughts on reraising vs. cold calling with AA?

[Dynasty]

Stop cold-calling pre-flop raises with A8s.

The post-flop play is all basic with only minor differences between raising the river and going for overcalls.

AA should have reraised pre-flop and folded on the river.

[Nottom]

I know its generally bad practice to coldcall the raise here, but with 4 people already in and if you can anticipate the blinds and maybe another calling as well ... don't you have the odds to call with this hand?

Also, although I think AA should have re-raised ... I really doubt it would have changed anything since he was in the blind and everyone already had 2 bets in and would be foolish to fold to one more at that point. Granted if the original raiser caps it, the situation might be a little different.

[Dynasty]

with 4 people already in and if you can anticipate the blinds and maybe another calling as well ... don't you have the odds to call with this hand?

Can you answer that question yourself? What's the odds of flopping a flush draw with Ah8h?

[SoBeDude]

The odds of flopping a flush draw don't change with the rank of your two suited cards.

and quit calling preflop raises with A8s!

-Scott

[techsan]

Is it like about 7.5:1?

[Dynasty]

The odds of flopping a 4-flush are 8.14:1. The odds of flopping a flush are 117.79:1. The combined odds are 7.48:1.

[Stu Pidasso]

The odds of floping a flush are .8% and a four flush 10.9% or a total of 11.7%. You will also flop a split 2 pair 2.02% and 3 of a kind(or better) about 1.45% Basically the odds of getting a favorable flop are right around 5.5 to 1.

When you have A8s and there is a raise in front of you. It's usually not worth playing because

A) The raiser likely dominates your hand. If you hit the flop, you might get handcuffed only to find your second best.

B) Your hand thrives on implied odds. Each preflop raise crushes those implied odds. You may have to call additional raises behind you, which would absolutely destroy your implied odds. In the example hand of this thread, the person with AA should be raising as much as possible preflop to crush the implied odds of the speculative hands. It's a disaster to miss putting in raises preflop with AA in a multiway pot.

Can you cold call a raise with A8s? Not very often.

Hope this helps

Stu

[Jim Easton]

UTG calls, UTG+1 Raises, 1 EP and 1 MP call, I call, as does the button

UTG plays 33. A raise gets 4 cold callers.

a pretty tough $2/4 PP table.

What would you consider soft?

[Barry]

OK, OK, message received. Kdog did want me to post a hand that was embarassing to me for a change.

I need to think more about this with respect to implied odds. TTOP doesn't specifically cover this situation. Does this mean that I need to have the expectation of winning at least 7.5 BB to call or is it 22.5? Do I need to consider the possible flop and turn bets? I know that Dynasty's posts are designed to make you think it through yourself rather that spoon feeding the answers. But the math involved is not clear to me. Could someone help me understand how I would properly calculate this?

[JTG51]

I believe that If the BB 3 bets his AA pre-flop, most likely, I'm out of there along with MP and UTG and he would have won.

That's just insane. You called 2 bets cold when there were 8 SBs in the pot, then you would have folded for 1 more bet when there would have likely been 19 SBs in the pot? That just doesn't make any sense. Same goes for UTG and MP. That said, you and MP never should have been in the hand. As Dynasty pointed out, cold calling before the flop is almost never correct, especially with bad aces.

BB had no chance to win this pot. Zero. His not 3-betting before the flop was a mistake, but it didn't cost him the pot.

[Lars Vegas]

Yes. But I assume you are going to play at least two pair and trip Eights as well. Also, if you are a good player, hitting just a bare Ace should be a EV+ situation too, as you should be able to lose little when no good and win what will be a pretty decent pot no matter what when it holds up, which - lets face it - will happen from time to time.

lars

[kiddo]

Everybody says that AA should have 3bet preflop (Dynasty, Nottom, Stu Pidasso, JTG51).

In HPFAP - section "When the pot gets big" - you can read:

"For instance, suppose you have two kings or two queens in the big blind. The player under the gun raises, and six people call. Our preferred way to play this hand is to not reraise, and then when the flop comes to bet out, unless it includes an ace. You should come out betting enlisting the original preflop raiser to be your unwitting partner to knock people out."

Why is this not a good advice in this pot when you are in BB with AA and UTG+1 openraise preflop? Is it not more important to try to knock people out then to build the pot or "crush the implied odds of the speculative hands" (Stu Pidasso)?

/Kiddo

[Clarkmeister]

No. Crushing implied odds and building a big pot is exactly how AA makes its money.

Mason's example with KK and QQ is done because they believe that the vulnerability of those hands (particularly QQ) to overcards demands that additional steps be taken to drive overcards out in the event that you survive the flop. AA has no such weakness. Besides, its not like you can't get creative with your postflop play. Many players will put you on something goofy like JTs before AA when you raise in that spot.

Plus, I would debate just how many additional pots you are going to be able to win by smoothcalling. Ever see people on the flop in a multiway raised pot? They aren't folding any piece of the pie, be it for one bet or two on the flop.

[kdog]

Actually the mistake(or biggest mistake)I made with this hand is not betting the flop and letting the preflop raiser help me thin the field.Preflop there are already 4 who have cold-called a raise and are going to call 1 or 2 more here.I felt that my best chance was to smooth call and hopefully use a checkraise later in the hand to eliminate some players.There is also some value to the disguised power of the hand,although certainly diminished against this large a field.So I'm fine with my preflop play.Not betting the flop was definately a mistake though,regardless of the outcome.

[Stu Pidasso]

When you have AA, preflop, anyone other than you, who pushes his/her chips to the center of the table is making a mistake. Your in a situation where you know with virtual certainty, you cannot err by betting(unlike KK who errs by betting preflop into AA). No other hand has this quality. Once the flop comes, that certainty goes out the window. Remember, you make money when people make mistakes against you. You had an opportunity to make 6 people make 6 mistakes against you. Get them to make there mistakes now, because for you, the crapshoot starts once the flop hits the felt, and not before.

Stu

[Ed Miller]

AA is a very different hand than QQ or even KK. AA is too money not to be raising an enormous field preflop.