Is it a Religion?

[SheetWise]

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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

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I don't read into this that governments (as opposed to Congress) can't interfere with religion. If that were true, any criminal could simply arrange their affairs as a church. Is Islam a religion or a political belief? And why do we tolerate a religious belief that we would not tolerate if it was a political belief? I think we are a little too sensitive about interfering in peoples religion.

[[censored]]

exactly what political beliefs are we not tolerating and what exactly would you do about them?

[SheetWise]

There are both politcal and religious beliefs we don't tolerate. For example, it is a crime to threaten or incite violence against many public officials -- which comes pretty close to a thought crime. We don't allow polygamy or marriage to children -- no matter what position your religion takes.

I find it interesting that we tolerate mosques where muslims publicly advocate death to infidels. I'm trying not to paint with a broad brush -- and I don't have a solution. I'm wondering where religion ends and politics begins. Should it be legal to support and promote a religion that calls for the death of others? Are we being a little too tolerant?

[[censored]]

my question was POLITICAL beliefs we are not tolerating? You answered with religious beliefs which actually disprove your case not help it.

Also where are these mosques you speak of?

No I don't think we are being too tolerant.

[SheetWise]

I don't think calling for the death of political leaders or waring with their armies are religious beliefs. I am not making a 'case' -- I am coming to a personal conclusion that Islam is not a religion, it is a political force -- and doesn't deserve a lot of the protections we give to religions.

Here's the best source I've found that monitors Islamic teachings --

http://www.jihadwatch.org/
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/

[lastchance]

We give the same protections to followers of Radical Islam as we do to the Neo-Nazi's, as scary as both of them are.

Everyone has freedom to speech.

[[censored]]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think calling for the death of political leaders or waring with their armies are religious beliefs. I am not making a 'case' -- I am coming to a personal conclusion that Islam is not a religion, it is a political force -- and doesn't deserve a lot of the protections we give to religions.

Here's the best source I've found that monitors Islamic teachings --

http://www.jihadwatch.org/
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/

[/ QUOTE ]

From those links it again doesn't look like you have any examples of this happening in the US. If I am wrong point it out.

So again what you are saying doesn't bear out in reality. We have declared war on terrorist what more are you looking for?

I have absolutely no clue what you mean by protections.

[SheetWise]

I hardly know where to begin--
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I have absolutely no clue what you mean by protections.

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We assume that places of worship are cornerstones of our society, and we give them a lot of protected status. There are many businesses that cannot be licensed in the vicinity of a church. We don't tax them. We recognize a higher degree of confidentiality between a religious leader and followers. We recognize churches as a sanctuary and have different standards before we interfere in their activities.

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From those links it again doesn't look like you have any examples of this happening in the US. If I am wrong point it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was easy -- you didn't even have to look below the fold --

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/007162.php#comments

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We have declared war on terrorist what more are you looking for?

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Maybe fighting the war we have declared, and winning it.

[[censored]]

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Timimi was found guilty of "soliciting" and "inducing" American Muslims to go to war against the US, to use firearms and carry explosives, among a total of 10 charges.

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do you mean that one? thats what was one the link

[[censored]]

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Maybe fighting the war we have declared, and winning it.

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What causes you to believe that we the US is not?

[coffeecrazy1]

Okay...is Christianity a religion or a political belief?

There are thousands of faithful Muslims who are peaceful, full-blooded, patriotic Americans. They serve in our military, they vote, and do everything that other Americans do. They were killed in the WTC collapses. They have been killed fighting on our side in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Many people vote the way they worship. So...either all religions are political beliefs, or none are. The strains of Islam that are fighting against us are more like the KKK for Christianity than anything else.

A blanket statement like "Is Islam a religion?" is a rash overgeneralization, but I do see the point you were trying to make...I just don't think it works that way.

And, I'm disappointed. I thought this was going to be about Scientology. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[[censored]]

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And why do we tolerate a religious belief that we would not tolerate if it was a political belief?

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You have yet to provide an example where this was the case.

To do this you need to provide a religious belief that was tolerated and a similar polictical belief that was not.

I seriously doubt you can do that.

[SheetWise]

I think the US should take a position on the teachings of Islam. We seem to just go along with the official lie that it's a religion of peace. If that were true, they would have a different manual. It is not a religion of peace, and no matter how many times it's repeated -- it will not be true.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

If it is a sniper way of advocating for starting a war against Islam you are walking down a dangerous path. Are you aware of how many moslems there are in the world? Are you going to push people over the edge by telling them that what they believe in is wrong and they better follow your way? Do you really think that you carry the moral credibility to do that?

It was thinking like you preach that Pope John Paul warned so much against.

Mixing religion into politics seldom leads to good.

[SheetWise]

[ QUOTE ]
To do this you need to provide a religious belief that was tolerated and a similar polictical belief that was not.

I seriously doubt you can do that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll try.

If a priest hears a confession, and refuses to testify in court claiming it is a priviledged communication -- it will probably be tolerated. It is a religious belief.

If a reporter refuses to testify, based on their political belief of protection -- it will usually not be tolerated. They will be held in contempt.

We do give special consideration to religious beliefs. I am begining to believe that we shouldn't when the religion has purely political aims.

[SheetWise]

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Are you going to push people over the edge by telling them that what they believe in is wrong and they better follow your way? Do you really think that you carry the moral credibility to do that?

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If their position is that we cannot co-exist unless I adopt their religion, then yes.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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Are you going to push people over the edge by telling them that what they believe in is wrong and they better follow your way? Do you really think that you carry the moral credibility to do that?

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If their position is that we cannot co-exist unless I adopt their religion, then yes.

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Have you or anyone you know ever encountered a moslem threatening you if you don't convert?

[ptmusic]

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We do give special consideration to religious beliefs. I am begining to believe that we shouldn't when the religion has purely political aims.

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Some fundamentalist Islamists do have very "political" aims, but to say the entire religion has PURELY political aims is taking it too far. There are many, many peaceful people who have received great spiritual benefits from Islam, and I'm not about to support anything that would stop them from getting those benefits.

-ptmusic

[[censored]]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the US should take a position on the teachings of Islam. We seem to just go along with the official lie that it's a religion of peace. If that were true, they would have a different manual. It is not a religion of peace, and no matter how many times it's repeated -- it will not be true.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very slippery slope. One which could be used against the teaching and practice of all religion. Some may support that notion. I do not.

[SheetWise]

If they believe what their religion teaches them, then all Muslims are a threat to all non-Muslims. If they don't believe it, they should say so.

Why would you believe a Muslim to any less of a threat to an infidel than Klansmen were to blacks, or Hitler was to Jews.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

To realize the lower magnitude of the threat:

Appx. # of moslems: 1,500,000,000
Appx. # of non-moslems killed by moslem terror each year: 1,000 (guesstimation)

So basically pr 1,5 million moslems to 1 "infidel" is killed annually. Moslems are spread in very many countries. Don't you think they would make better results than that if that was their target?

[SheetWise]

So where do you want to put the threshold? If you follow their teachings, it is like a cancer on the world. If left unchecked and allowed to spread in this form, eventually you will get your numbers.

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Qur’an 2:191 “And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter.”


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Qur’an 9:5 “When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”


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Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”


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Qur’an 66:1 “Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows.”


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Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them.”


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Qur’an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends.”


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Qur’an 72:15 “The disbelievers are the firewood of hell.”

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Qur’an 2:64 “But you [Jews] went back on your word and were lost losers. So become apes, despised and hated. We made an example out of you.”


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Tabari IX:69 “Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us.”


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Tabari VIII:130 “The Messenger said, ‘Two religions cannot coexist in the Arabian Peninsula.’ Umar investigated the matter, then sent to the Jews, saying: ‘Allah has given permission for you to be expelled.”

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[[censored]]

yes, yes but that changes nothing. We tend to try to avoid having to restrict speech in this country even hate speech.

I don't support hate crime legislation and I wouldn't support a foriegn policy based on the same.

When someone becomes a known threat we should kill them.

We should not however basically declare war on the entire muslem world by in affect saying "your religion blows" even though in some ways it does.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

So it shows that the huge majority of moslems does not put these words into action, but a minority uses it to try to spread hatred.

My point being, if you spread fear you also use the Qu'ran to spread hatred (against moslems) which has the same dangerous polarizing effect.

[bobman0330]

Have you read the Old Testament? There's plenty of violence in there too.

I don't care whether Islam is a religion of peace or a religion of violence. If we let Klansman and neo-Nazis walk around (and we should), we should let people of any religious belief hold their beliefs undisturbed, so long as they don't break the laws.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

If you look on religion and wars it is the missionary religions that always tend to end up in religious wars, mainly Christianity and Islams. Less missionary religions like Jewism, Hinduism and Buddhism have been more peaceful.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
We should not however basically declare war on the entire muslem world by in affect saying "your religion blows" even though in some ways it does.

[/ QUOTE ]

Parts of it however are incompatible with equality and peace with any other religions or philosophies. I think we should tell them that THOSE PARTS blow.

Moreover, it is those parts which are spawning crazed jihadists and imams who quote those very Koranic passages as justifications and support for acts of terrorism.

[SheetWise]

I'm not really sure how I feel about prior restraint when people are advocating behavior like this. I'm certainly open to expanding laws to criminalize speech promoting what would be a crime if followed.

[lastchance]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not really sure how I feel about prior restraint when people are advocating behavior like this. I'm certainly open to expanding laws to criminalize speech promoting what would be a crime if followed.

[/ QUOTE ]
I believe this already exists.

[SheetWise]

Apparently only if you solicit treason. Calling for the death of infidels, and the destruction of the West is still okay.

[MMMMMM]

I say, deport any foreigners who call for the death of infidels or the destruction of the West. Don't make free speech a crime; just kick them out.

Basically, if that's the way they feel, fine, they have every right to feel that way--now leave.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
We seem to just go along with the official lie that it's a religion of peace.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sigh. I'm willing to bet you no nothing about Islam, the different sects and how they vary in their teachings, or what the majority of Muslims believe.

Maybe you should go see what Coulter says?