Battle of the blinds, flop a set on single-suited board - $33

[pergesu]

***** Hand History for Game 2367655538 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:13953669 Level:2 Blinds(15/30) - Friday, July 15, 12:36:03 EDT 2005
Table Table 11788 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 4: n1507l ( $730 )
Seat 5: gratz55 ( $665 )
Seat 6: UNCLEGE ( $1535 )
Seat 9: pattywack85 ( $760 )
Seat 10: bacwood2 ( $775 )
Seat 2: Mr_Samosa ( $1690 )
Seat 7: jprsales ( $1845 )
Trny:13953669 Level:2
Blinds(15/30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to pattywack85 [ 5s 5h ]
bacwood2 folds.
Mr_Samosa folds.
n1507l folds.
gratz55 folds.
UNCLEGE folds.
jprsales calls [15].
pattywack85 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5d, Jd, 9d ]
jprsales bets [30].
pattywack85 calls [30].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ts ]
jprsales bets [100].
pattywack85 raises [325].
jprsales calls [225].
** Dealing River ** [ 7c ]
jprsales checks.
pattywack85 checks.

[mlagoo]

I'm assuming what you're thinking is that no single diamond is going to pay you off on the end here, unless you get lucky and he has Jx-Xd. So the only hands that call a push here have you beat. Which is probably right.

I dunno though. Not much has you beat here. And especially not much has you beat here that would risk a check through on the river in the event that you were on a(n aggressively played) diamond draw. I think I bet it. Which of course is a push here.

I think it's close.

edit: oh, i forgot to mention: why the call on the flop? were you thinking that you wouldn't be able to push him off a diamond regardless, so you may as well wait for a blank turn to fire out on? just wondering what your thought process was.

[Jay36489]

I'm not checking behind on this river.

[pergesu]

I just called on the flop cause I didn't really see what a raise would do for me. If he comes over the top, am I beat? Who knows...but I'm not layin down a set heads up in the blinds. I'd also prefer to see what the turn is - if it's another diamond, I can get out cheap. If not, hopefully he bets and I can pop it and maybe get some more chips out of it.

My opponent should know with my turn raise that I'm committed to the hand. If he reraises me all-in, I'm obviously calling. If he just calls, it's far more likely he's on a draw or has me beat at this point. I can't see him calling this bet drawing dead, unless he intends to bluff a river diamond. He's getting less than 2-1 on his call here, so he makes a mistake by drawing. Plus I've said I'm willing to play for my stack, so if he wants to come over and gamble, so be it.

I see no point in betting the river at all. That board is just way too ugly for someone to call with a hand that doesn't have me beat, if I push. Which is what I'd do, given the size of the pot. I think I get called only by better hands, so I don't stand to gain anything by betting.

[45suited]

Even though the turn card was scary, I would have given serious thought to pushing there. Since you didn't push the turn, I like the river check.

Did you consider pushing the turn?

[Jay36489]

[ QUOTE ]
I see no point in betting the river at all. That board is just way too ugly for someone to call with a hand that doesn't have me beat, if I push. Which is what I'd do, given the size of the pot. I think I get called only by better hands, so I don't stand to gain anything by betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you may be giving the average 33s player too much credit. He could have something wierd like J8 which has you beat, or be slowplaying a flush (any reads?).

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I see no point in betting the river at all. That board is just way too ugly for someone to call with a hand that doesn't have me beat, if I push. Which is what I'd do, given the size of the pot. I think I get called only by better hands, so I don't stand to gain anything by betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you may be giving the average 33s player too much credit. He could have something wierd like J8 which has you beat, or be slowplaying a flush (any reads?).

[/ QUOTE ]
Looks to me like we're saying the same thing...I said I checked behind on the river because he could easily have J8, A8, or basically 8x with a diamond. Or he could be slowplaying a flush.

Any hands I can beat will fold to my all-in. I only get called by a better hand, so there's no point in betting, cause I can never win extra chips, and can only bust.

45suited: I did consider pushing the turn, but I thought a raise to 325 would be just as effective in getting a drawer out as pushing. If he just calls, I have a few more options, and I can choose what I want to do on the river.

[Newt_Buggs]

I just wanted to add in that I raise pf

[The Venetian]

Raise the flop.

The chances of him having a single heart are several times greater than him having two. Plus, you have that whole re-draw to the boat thing going for you. Build yourself a pot while he's drawing.

The odds of him having two hearts here are like 4%. The odds of him having a single heart are closer to 35%. Assume the latter.

[pergesu]

I realize it's a lot less likely that he flopped a flush. I discussed my reasons for waiting until the turn to raise in my above posts. If what I said isn't clear, let me know, and I'll try to explain myself better.

[durron597]

You played this hand perfectly, unless you think he pays you off on the river with just a jack.

[The Venetian]

I see your reasoning and I've been there. That doesn't make it right.

You've got position and, likely, a better, but vulnerable hand. Isn't this when you normally raise?

By calling, you're either slowplaying (which you say you're not) or you're scared of the heart falling and ruining your hand. Heck, maybe a heart would scare him more than you.

What part of the hand exactly did you want help on?

[EverettKings]

Why not make a donkey little 100-150 chip value bet on the river?

If he has you beat with diamonds, he's an idiot for not getting his money in sooner. Good for him. If he's got an 8, the way you played the hand, there's a good chance that he just calls the river. If he has a worse hand, he may well fold to a push, but if you stick 100 chips out there? Surely Jx will look you up at that point. Hell maybe he'll get overconfident and think his J7 is good and push over the top of that.

The only reason to check behind is if you really think you're beat. I don't have reason to believe that yet.

Kings

[ZeroPointMachine]

[ QUOTE ]
You played this hand perfectly, unless you think he pays you off on the river with just a jack.

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree.

Every single time I see a suited board I take a deep breath and say to myself "don't go broke"

It's easy to convince yourself that he doesn't have the flush or he is drawing to the Ace.

I think keeping the pot small on the flop is a play that not many players make in this situation, but building a pot now quickly leads to the "well if he's got it (or gets it) maybe I'll hit my boat....too many chips in the pot...

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not make a donkey little 100-150 chip value bet on the river?

...

The only reason to check behind is if you really think you're beat. I don't have reason to believe that yet.

Kings

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is true. The reason to check behind is with three to a flush and one-card straight possibility on the board, you can't really stand a C/R allin here. Or, at least, you might be able to simply because of the amount of chips in the pot, but it would be an absolute crying call.

Instead of risking going broke to a better hand here, you can check it down and still take down a decent sized pot, but not let a better hand break you.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Every single time I see a suited board I take a deep breath and say to myself "don't go broke"

It's easy to convince yourself that he doesn't have the flush or he is drawing to the Ace.

I think keeping the pot small on the flop is a play that not many players make in this situation, but building a pot now quickly leads to the "well if he's got it (or gets it) maybe I'll hit my boat....too many chips in the pot...

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really think the OP played the hand the way he did because he had a tremendous fear of a made flush on the flop. He kept the pot small because their were two big draws on the board and was waiting to raise a safe turn. If the turn was 2c and the villain pushed, I can almost guarantee you that the OP would have called. I know that I would have.

If I have a set, I'm never going to give a heads up opponent credit for a flopped flush here. On a safe turn, I'm putting a big bet in.

[Jay36489]

[ QUOTE ]
Looks to me like we're saying the same thing...I said I checked behind on the river because he could easily have J8, A8, or basically 8x with a diamond. Or he could be slowplaying a flush.

Any hands I can beat will fold to my all-in. I only get called by a better hand, so there's no point in betting, cause I can never win extra chips, and can only bust.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I think a Jack or two pair here does pay you off depending on your read. Hes got 1000 left if he calls your all in. If you had put him all in I think hes less likely to pay it off.

[EverettKings]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is true. The reason to check behind is with three to a flush and one-card straight possibility on the board, you can't really stand a C/R allin here. Or, at least, you might be able to simply because of the amount of chips in the pot, but it would be an absolute crying call.

Instead of risking going broke to a better hand here, you can check it down and still take down a decent sized pot, but not let a better hand break yo

[/ QUOTE ]


My main point is that his check shows a lot more weakness than everyone seems to think. Did he really call the big turn raise with just an 8 on a 3 flush board? OK a few hands fit, like Ad8x, or J8, but I think much more often you're going to see hands like QT, Ad9x, etc.

ALSO if he did hit his eight, why wouldn't he lead it out? Surely he's got to expect you to check behind on that monstrous board.

I just can hardly see a hand he'd play this way that you're losing to. If I throw 100 chips out there he'll make his crying call with a weak made hand, or get stupid and think he can get me off the hand with a push for 350 on his whiffed Ad. If this were a higher buyin I could expect more trickery, but at a 33 I'm gonna squeeze every drop of value I can out of this.

Kings

[schwza]

i raise pre-flop. you can often pick up a small pot that way.

i raise the flop. Jx and a naked big diamond will get all in with you on that flop.

the river is an interesting one. i think in the moment i'd have bet it, but i like a check behind. there aren't too many hands that pay you off here, and most hands that beat you will check to you, given the action. if the 7 was a 6 instead, i'd probably bet.

[wizard]

I like the way that it was played post flop but I think a bet on the river is very close. I don't think that it has to be an all in though and a smaller bet may induce a JX call or missed draw bluff raise.

Before the flop I think that you have a hand that is far superior to many of the hands that SB would limp with and you should make it 100 to go. Picking up the 30 would be fine and you may have an easier time of it postflop.

[ZeroPointMachine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Every single time I see a suited board I take a deep breath and say to myself "don't go broke"

It's easy to convince yourself that he doesn't have the flush or he is drawing to the Ace.

I think keeping the pot small on the flop is a play that not many players make in this situation, but building a pot now quickly leads to the "well if he's got it (or gets it) maybe I'll hit my boat....too many chips in the pot...

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really think the OP played the hand the way he did because he had a tremendous fear of a made flush on the flop. He kept the pot small because their were two big draws on the board and was waiting to raise a safe turn. If the turn was 2c and the villain pushed, I can almost guarantee you that the OP would have called. I know that I would have.

If I have a set, I'm never going to give a heads up opponent credit for a flopped flush here. On a safe turn, I'm putting a big bet in.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, if he flopped the flush he gets some chips, but I try to make sure he doesn't get them all. See the cheap turn, bet enough on the turn to make his A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif a bad call. If he hits the flush hope he gets cute thinking you have a smaller draw and checks or value bets (leaving you hurt but alive)

[pergesu]

fwiw, he had 87o, with the 8 of diamonds, so turned the straight.

I actually really like how I played it (though it could be results-orientedness talking), but I wanted to get some different perspectives on it.