MP HU vs. Tight PF raiser

[flair1239]

UB 5/10

Hero is UTG2 w/ A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

CO Villian is 25/3/1 after about 50 hands or so. Being pretty quiet so far. Has folded a couple flops. Called down a bit with overs on boards that A high might be good. Would like to give more info. But my read at the time was standard, kind of tight passive.

PF: Hero limps, Villian raises, hero calls

Flop: (2 players) (5.4SB) J /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Hero _________ planning to ___________, because ____________

A couple quick thoughts. The A9s is not an automatic for me. I would say I am limping 40-50%, raising 20%, and folding the rest. Depending on the table. I limped here because the blinds, MP3 and Button were relatively loose and there had not been much PF raising at the table. I won't go into when I am raising or folding PF, because I would like to stay on the flop action. However if anyone has strong feelings, feel free to voice them.

BTW is the hero ________ planning to ________. Format helpful or just annoying.

[shark6]

This is always a tough spot OOP against a tight PF raiser. My logic follows, I would appreciate comments on it.

I would CHECK/CALL planning to CHECK/CALL TURN UI AND THEN CHECK/FOLDING RIVER UI, because Villain apparently doesn’t raise much PF, so I’d put him on JJ+ or AK/AQ where he won’t bet an UI AK/AQ on the river if you called down to that point.

1. If you go for the checkraise and you are behind JJ+ you’ll get 3-bet and have to call. (-1.5 BB to see the turn)
2. If you go for the checkraise and are ahead of AK/AQ, he’ll call and then you’ll be in an uncomfortable position no matter what card other than a A or 9 comes on the turn. (+1 BB, you may have him reverse dominated, but you could be looking at a turn raise if he does have JJ+ when you lead out the turn, and then you’ll have to call again).
3. With the check/call flop, check/call turn and check/fold river, you can see two more cards for 1.5BB, get in a checkraise if you improve, while losing the same 1.5BB as if you go for the checkraise on the flop and are behind.

Note: This logic is predicated on him being a tight PF raise and not betting betting an UI AK/AQ on the river. If he were a loose PF raiser or an aggressive post flop player, I’d lead the river and fold to a raise UI.

[baronzeus]

I would check/raise him here. If he 3 bets you call and fold any turn but an A or a 9. AK is the only raising hand that you beat here.

[shark6]

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I would check/raise him here. If he 3 bets you call and fold any turn but an A or a 9. AK is the only raising hand that you beat here.

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Why are you folding a spade turn?

[pauliewalnuts]

Since we only have about 50 hands on this guy, I dont think you can narrow down the hands we are ahead of to only AK. This particular player could also be raising AQ or KQs.

[flair1239]

I am not suggesting this for everytime in this situation, but anybody up for calling the mandatory flop bet, then taking the cahnce of giving him a free card and CR the turn?

Reason being, if we can assume he is a tight raiser, there is a good chance we have him reverse dominated. So a free card might not be that big of a deal. At this point the pot is not "Big" and the board is not too drawy.

[baronzeus]

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I would check/raise him here. If he 3 bets you call and fold any turn but an A or a 9. AK is the only raising hand that you beat here.

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Why are you folding a spade turn?

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My mistake, I'm folding any turn except for an A, 9, or spade.

[shark6]

True, 50 hands isn't a lot. But, I just hate to start firing chips into a small pot when it's quite likely I'm behind.

I don't see the point of a checkraise against a passive tight PF raiser in a small pot with second pair. What are you trying to protect your hand against or push him off of? I'd rather try to improve and give him a checkraise if I catch a A or 9 or backdoor flush. Plus, I really think he'll give you a free showdown anyway with AK/AQ/KQ if you call a turn bet from him.

[baronzeus]

I think check-raising here is good because of the type of opponent. You're basically telling him "I have a jack". If this weak-tight-passive opponent 3bets you, you can call the 3bet and easily fold the turn. But if you just call the flop and fold the turn, you're folding a hand where you have a decent chance to be ahead on the flop. Maybe I'm wrong thouugh.

[shark6]

I'm not folding the turn because it is still possible that we are ahead. I just don't want to fire multiple bets in this small pot to find out.

Anyway, with a call-call line we are also saying, "I have something". which is scary enough to a passive player to check behind at some point.

If he checks the flop or turn, we fire on the next street. If he checks the river we win, maybe not as much as if we checkraised the flop and he called down, but it keeps us from losing 3+SB's into a 5SB pot on the flop.

[baronzeus]

So you're folding the river then?

I just don't understand. If you're ahead on the turn and a K or a Q doesn't come out, you're ahead on the river.So you're just planning on calling down?

[chesspain]

I would go for a checkraise. Given his low PF AG rating, if he three-bets the flop, then we have an easy fold UI on the turn. I don't mind possibly giving the free card on the flop, because when he is behind he is likely drawing to three outs or less in a reverse dominated scenario unless he has KQ. Furthermore, if he does has KQ, he is much more likely to fold the turn UI if we checkraise the flop.

[shant]

Hero goes back in time planning to raise preflop, because [i]he has a good hand, and doesn't really mind if the loose players cold-call, and he takes initiative in the hand.

[shark6]

Last post on this for me.

I don't think Villian is the type to always 3-bet with JJ+. Instead, he may call you down or raise you on the turn or river instead. This is the worst case senerio, with you putting in multiple big bets going after a small flop pot while drawing to 5 or less outs.

I'd rather risk free cards and find out I'm ahead when he checks behind at some point because of the small pot and the high likelyhood he has JJ+.

[chesspain]

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Last post on this for me.

I don't think Villian is the type to always 3-bet with JJ+. Instead, he may call you down or raise you on the turn or river instead.

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Against this opponent it is likely a very easy laydown UI to either a turn or river raise. And if he only calls a flop checkraise and then calls a turn bet, you can then consider checking the river. But as I stated earlier, checkraising the flop and bettting the turn could get him to fold hands that you want him to fold, like KQ or TT, while charging him two bets to peel on the flop to catch a three-outer if he has AK/AQ.


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I'd rather risk free cards and find out I'm ahead when he checks behind at some point because of the small pot and the high likelyhood he has JJ+.

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Why is there a high likelihood that he has JJ+ or better?

[jstewsmole]

[ QUOTE ]
I am not suggesting this for everytime in this situation, but anybody up for calling the mandatory flop bet, then taking the cahnce of giving him a free card and CR the turn?

Reason being, if we can assume he is a tight raiser, there is a good chance we have him reverse dominated. So a free card might not be that big of a deal. At this point the pot is not "Big" and the board is not too drawy.

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I like this alot. I figure u have him reverse dominated unless he has AJ and thats unlikely given his slim raising standards. And if he has a high pocket pair ur not spewing.

[flair1239]

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Why is there a high likelihood that he has JJ+ or better?

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My stats on him had him at 5% over 50 hands for PFR. So when I played this hand, I gave him credit for having a more narrow range.

So he maybe more likely to have a big pair than the "average" player.