Prayer 'no aid to heart patients'

[evil_twin]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4681771.stm

Anyone surprised? Anyone think prayer makes a difference?

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4681771.stm

Anyone surprised? Anyone think prayer makes a difference?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do.

In the sense that a person's general attitude makes a difference, even in personal health. And this has nothing to do with pseudo-science but it has something to do with the way voodoo dolls work.

Check out, for more, the literature around the placebo effect, and especially this little volume: link (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521000874/qid=1121422150/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-2565788-0118327?v=glance&s=books)

[evil_twin]

[ QUOTE ]
In the sense that a person's general attitude makes a difference, even in personal health. And this has nothing to do with pseudo-science but it has something to do with the way voodoo dolls work.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course. The study backed up this view. Those who were "supported" via relaxed breathing techniques or music did just as well as those who were prayed for. I doubt anyone here would argue that a positive outlook won't help, there is much evidence that it will.

However, if prayers were being answered, one might expect an extra bonus effect, over and above the "positive outlook" effect. This study has shows that's not the case.

PS I'm not sure what you mean about the voodoo dolls, I'm fairly sure they *won't* work if the person whom the doll is made of doesn't know of it's existence.

[David Sklansky]

Didn't read the link. Assume it concerned prayers in the name of someone else without their knowledge. Cyrus probably didn't realize that.

Anyway I've already stated that if several studies showed an unmistakable link I would become a believer. Notice however that believers would be quick to pounce on a correlation to support their views, as they should, but will find some excuse when no link is found. And no link is EVER found. Even if one were to admit the possibility that prayers worked in biblical days, farfetched as that seems, it is ridiculously obvious they haven't done anything lately.

Believely in God can be understood. Ditto believing in an afterlife. But believing that God is at all likely to answer prayers? Those who do have serious mental problems, (At least as bad as those who believe in astrology or rushes.)

[K C]

I like the "astrology and rushes" line /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I wonder what the whole point of such a study is since if it did show that prayer was helpful it would be passed off as a placebo effect anyway. However aside from this study there has been a lot of instances where it's at least alleged that prayer has saved many from death's door. None of this is "scientific" of course but it's even funnier that some think this is something science is equipped to determine anyway /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The offshoot of this must of course be that if you're dying and are looking for prayer someone will step in and cite this study to you in order to discourage you /images/graemlins/smile.gif

We're already aware of the power of the mind in terms of affecting positive change on health and there's plenty of evidence to support this. I assume that just by taking a random sample like this the proper conviction or "faith" if you will may have been lacking in enough of them to produce these results.

KC

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
The study backed up this view. Those who were "supported" via relaxed breathing techniques or music did just as well as those who were prayed for. I doubt anyone here would argue that a positive outlook won't help, there is much evidence that it will.

[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely. The evidence is not just "much", it's overwhelming. The book I linked to in the previous post details experiments showing the effect on the patient of doctors who are told differing stories about the administred stuff's (drug? placebo?) effectiveness. `

And what about the documented sharp decrease in the effectiveness among the general population of tested & "provenly" effective drugs as soon as new versions of those drugs appear in the market (not too different chemically) ?

[ QUOTE ]
If prayers were [been] answered, one might expect an extra bonus effect, over and above the "positive outlook" effect. This study ... shows that's not the case.

[/ QUOTE ]
I understood the study to involve prayers by the patients and their immediate social and family circle, in full knowledge of the patient. Otherwise, as Sklansky pointed out, praying and not praying have the exact same effect, which is essentially zero.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what you mean about the voodoo dolls, I'm fairly sure they *won't* work if the person whom the doll is made of doesn't know of it's existence.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. As in the case of prayers, voodoo practiced in front of and directed towards an person who can be impressed and/or is highly susceptible to suggestion can have significant effects, sometimes to the point of devastation.

But no matter how many pins I pin to a Sklansky doll at home, Sklansky won't suffer if Sklansky is not aware of my voodoo. (If only I could lure him to the wo@ (http://www.bjrnet.com/board/voodoo/index.cgi?read=4296)d clearing at midnight...)

[BZ_Zorro]

Prayer doesn't work because of God. The human mind is built to tap into the Quantum Universe. This is the source of all energy and life in the universe, and scientists are just beginning to understand it. By tapping into this gigantic quantum field, we can do seemingly miraculous things.

Meditation and prayer both draw on this quantum field.

[drudman]

[ QUOTE ]
Prayer doesn't work because of God. The human mind is built to tap into the Quantum Universe. This is the source of all energy and life in the universe, and scientists are just beginning to understand it. By tapping into this gigantic quantum field, we can do seemingly miraculous things.

Meditation and prayer both draw on this quantum field.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oooookay...

[BZ_Zorro]

Hey, I figured the board needed some kooks. I threw the bait out but no one bit.

If you read it closely, nothing I said is strictly untrue, just a bit of mangling of terminology.

Prayer doesn't work because of God (in fact, it doesn't work at all). The human mind is built to tap into the Quantum Universe (the whole universe is composed of quarks and other elementary particles, they form the building blocks of matter which are the basis of the brain's cells and its cellular processes). This is the source of all energy and life in the universe (see above), and scientists are just beginning to understand it (true). By tapping into this gigantic quantum field (i.e by using our brain cells), we can do seemingly miraculous things (like writing dumb posts or climbing Mt Everest).

Meditation and prayer both draw on this quantum field (any biological process does).

[quinn]

[ QUOTE ]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4681771.stm

Anyone surprised? Anyone think prayer makes a difference?

[/ QUOTE ]

Deuteronomy 6:16 "Do not test the Lord your God"

This only strengthens the notion that God doesn't answer experimental prayers.

But listen to the many doctors who say that prayer does make a difference. And notice how they say this NOT as a conclusion from an experiment.

This experiment only shows that prayer is not a psychology or magic trick.

Prayer works because of God.

edit:
[ QUOTE ]
Anyway I've already stated that if several studies showed an unmistakable link I would become a believer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you will ever see this.

[David Sklansky]

"This only strengthens the notion that God doesn't answer experimental prayers.

But listen to the many doctors who say that prayer does make a difference. And notice how they say this NOT as a conclusion from an experiment."

But that could be tested statistically as well. By interviewing people after the fact to see if they prayed for a patient (who was not expecting that prayer). It would be hard but in principle doable. And if your contention was right there would be a correlation. Wanna bet?

[David Sklansky]

Deuteronomy 6:16 "Do not test the Lord your God"

So God will likely purposely thwart any experiments that are set up to try to show his existence. How convenient. The guys who wrote Deuteronomy were pretty clever. And the ones who believe it not so clever.

[quinn]

[ QUOTE ]

But that could be tested statistically as well. By interviewing people after the fact to see if they prayed for a patient (who was not expecting that prayer). It would be hard but in principle doable. And if your contention was right there would be a correlation. Wanna bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

That might work, but it would be a fuzzy study. There would be no way to confirm whether any individual prayer was faithful. And once again, I wouldn't be surprised if God purposefully messed up the study. This is still testing God, and I don't think He appreciates it.

Would I bet? Probably. I'm confident that you would lay ridiculous odds against any positive correlation, and I would most likely take those ridiculous odds.

By the way, your books are great. Thanks for helping me not have to work a minimum wage job during my summer breaks from school.

[quinn]

[ QUOTE ]
Deuteronomy 6:16 "Do not test the Lord your God"

So God will likely purposely thwart any experiments that are set up to try to show his existence. How convenient. The guys who wrote Deuteronomy were pretty clever. And the ones who believe it not so clever.

[/ QUOTE ]

If God doesn't actually exist, this shouldn't be a problem for you. But yeah, if Deuteronomy was totally made up that would be pretty clever.

[kpux]

[ QUOTE ]
Prayer doesn't work because of God. The human mind is built to tap into the Quantum Universe. This is the source of all energy and life in the universe, and scientists are just beginning to understand it. By tapping into this gigantic quantum field, we can do seemingly miraculous things.

Meditation and prayer both draw on this quantum field.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's this homeless guy who lives outside my apartment that you would get along with quite well.

[David Sklansky]

"That might work, but it would be a fuzzy study. There would be no way to confirm whether any individual prayer was faithful. And once again, I wouldn't be surprised if God purposefully messed up the study. This is still testing God, and I don't think He appreciates it."

He would mess up this study? People are honestly praying for somebody, God is prepared to answer those prayers. Yet now he doesn't, lets patients, suffer or die, because a third party unrelated to the patient or legitimate prayer, is conducting a study?

[quinn]

[ QUOTE ]
"That might work, but it would be a fuzzy study. There would be no way to confirm whether any individual prayer was faithful. And once again, I wouldn't be surprised if God purposefully messed up the study. This is still testing God, and I don't think He appreciates it."

He would mess up this study? People are honestly praying for somebody, God is prepared to answer those prayers. Yet now he doesn't, lets patients, suffer or die, because a third party unrelated to the patient or legitimate prayer, is conducting a study?

[/ QUOTE ]

There's more than one way to skin a rat.

Notice also that I said I wouldn't be surprised if God did that. I didn't say He would. But for the record, I also wouldn't be surprised if God killed someone for testing Him.