where to go from here, want to improve [long post]

[mulebennett]

As a typically-lurking-rarely-posting member of the Two Plus Two forums, I have learned a lot in here in the last few months that I have been reading posts regularly. Last summer about this time I got my first taste of poker, playing home games every night, breaking even and playing tight.

I went to school and stepped my game up to the point where when I came home to play, I cleaned up and took everybody's money. At school I played Party Poker and lost probably $400 altogether through a handful of $50 buy-ins and one $100 buy-in.

Poker has become an obsession--not to the point where I can't function without it--and I love the idea of using my mental sharpness to outsmart someone. I watch tons of televised poker, own several poker books (including Super System 2), and I do anything I can to improve my game.

Off this most recent buy-in that I put in at the beginning of the summer ($100), not only did the buy-in last longer but I also made a good amount of money and I played well in bigger tournaments. Two that stick out were getting 1st out of 20 in a $10+1 two-table as well as getting 15th in a 1300+ person $5000 freeroll.

I didn't have the bankroll to be playing the NL100 tables that I played. I worked my way up to $425 and was playing very good poker, but hit some rough spots and lost it all in about two or three days. For a while I was running great, making good reads and everything... then I hit a cold streak where I'd raise with aces and everyone would fold or it'd get broken by 2-6 offsuit.

I rarely post answers and sometimes ask questions on this forum mostly because I don't have the poker knowledge to answer most people's questions. I like Party's software and I am convinced that when I am playing well, I can win consistently.

But consistency is my concern. With $425 in my account I should not have been playing NL100, because when I lost trip kings to a rivered flush, I lost 1/4 of my account. I untwined, but I gained confidence and experience in higher stakes and I felt good about the way I played until the last couple of days.

So where do I go from here? I'm not worried about being down because I did well in my games at school and I typically save my money except for buying in to poker. Do I buy-in for $100, try to work it up again--this time cashing out when I get a bit higher?--or do I take time off, or keep reading posts and the books? I've never really thought about using Poker Tracker, but it sounds like that stuff is frowned upon by Party Poker these days.

Cliff's notes: I want to be a better player but I'm not sure where to go from here, having lost a bit of money on online poker. I am 19 years old and have been playing cards for a year and have a great interest in improving my game. I have a few friends who are excellent poker players at school and are more than willing to hang out with me and help me improve my game.. but I'd like to hear your suggestions.

[DeepFryer]

Well, for now you should certainly move down in limits. The $25 buy-in tables are probably best, based on your experience and bankroll. (assuming you can still get at least $200 to play with)

And yes, you should read more books if you want to improve. Two of my favorites are 'Harrington on Holdem, vol. 1' and 'The Theory of Poker'. After that, just keep playing and it shouldn't be too hard to beat the $25 tables.

I'll admit I'm not that great either, but this is what I've been doing and I'm definitely getting a lot better.

[nervous]

Play a lower level. (Why do you feel you need to play 100NL?)

Oh, and keep reading here daily.

[Robk]

i agree with deepfryer that you should move down. the first thing id do would be to study up a bit on bankroll and variance. if youre going to play longterm you probably want a bankroll of about 30 buyins for NL cash games, eg 750 dollars for $25 NL. and this is assuming youre a winning player, and it sounds like youre not sure. so be prepared to lose a lot along the way.

if the bankroll requirements are a bit steep you may want to look into playing the low stakes sitngos. small bankroll needed, not too hard to beat, and a decent earn. im sure the 1table tournament forum would help you out. or you could always grab a few bonuses to boost your roll.

if you want to play cash games definitely get some books: ciaffone and reubens book, i dont remember what else is good for NL. quick search in the books forum i guess. careful with that super system advice!

also search the NL forums with Ray Zee as the username, and then read all the posts. (and you can do the same in the archives). great advice, and free too.

[spaminator101]

if your looking for a good book to help you start on on NL holdem id buy TJ Cloutiets and Tom MCevoys book from the championship series

[ditto]

Maybe you should try and switch to limit games. This would reduce the size on the swings on your bankroll if you had a bad run. Play .5/1 util you can beat that game then move up slowly.

[MaxPower]

You are just going to have to work hard. That means reading books over and over again, posting on the forum, talking and thinking about hands, doing some math, etc. It is going to take up a lot of your time and you will have to struggle a little.

If you are not willing to do that you are better off playing for stakes you can afford and having some fun with the game. There is nothing wrong with that.

[BottlesOf]

The things you hear over and over are correct: read a lot, move down in limits, bonus whore.

The one thing I'd add and stress is to become more active on these boards. You can learn a lot from reading, but you learn a lot more, IMO, by posting hands, asking questions, AND answering them. Don't let what you think is a lack of poker knowledge prevent you from responding to hands and trying to answer other people's questions. If you post something a little off, someone will correct you and then you can re-reply and learn why your understanding may have been incorrect. This is a great way to learn and develop. Good luck.

[beaster]

[ QUOTE ]
You can learn a lot from reading, but you learn a lot more, IMO, by posting hands, asking questions, AND answering them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I have just started posting here, but lately I've begun coaching my brother via email. I'm nothing great, but I've been moving up the limits -- 0.02/0.04 to nickel/dime to 0.10/0.20 and now 0.25/0.50 -- rather successfully and he's just starting out. Giving him advice makes me think about my game more and how I can improve. Also seeing him have some success makes me think that my fundamentals are pretty good as well.

[AlexSem]

1. Get Lee Jones' book
2. Get small stakes by Ed Miller
3. Read both at least 3 times each
4. Deposit 100$ into party
5. Play .5/1
6. If you go broke, come back here.

[mulebennett]

I was playing out of my limit but I enjoyed the action and I wasn't losing for a while. The NL 25 tables are such a grind because I feel like I'm never paid off for playing well and I think people also chase crappy hands because it is cheap to do so. I downloaded a free program that gives me odds of hitting hands and I played with that which helped me figure out pot odds--a theory I am still trying to completely understand.

I'll check into those books and I'll continue to read the forums. If I am to switch to limit, how do you guys all seem to make money and not really gamble? I know you guys make good reads and things, and I know you all have a knowledge of variance and other more complex components about the game.

What I would ultimately like is to be good and consistent enough to make this a summer job and earn additional income out of it. I'm not talking crazy numbers, but making $3000-4000 in a summer and a couple hundred a month during school by messing around. I know most of you are good enough to do that, so it would be helpful to hear how you did it.

Also, are there any free--and legal--tools that I can download to help track my hands played, in terms of how much money I've made at each level as well as how many hands I've played?

Thanks for your feedback, I came to you guys cause I know I'm talking with some of the best.

[AlexSem]

[ QUOTE ]
I was playing out of my limit but I enjoyed the action and I wasn't losing for a while. The NL 25 tables are such a grind because I feel like I'm never paid off for playing well and I think people also chase crappy hands because it is cheap to do so. I downloaded a free program that gives me odds of hitting hands and I played with that which helped me figure out pot odds--a theory I am still trying to completely understand.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you dont' FULLY, 100%, understand pot odds. You're a fish. You cannot be a winning player, period.

You play NL? How the hell do you win if you don't get pot odds? Lol not to mention NL is about implied odds more so.


[ QUOTE ]

I'll check into those books and I'll continue to read the forums. If I am to switch to limit, how do you guys all seem to make money and not really gamble?


[/ QUOTE ]

Get the books, forget these forums until the end of the summer for sure. Nothing here is going to help you, only confuse you and have you make stupid money-losing decisions.


[ QUOTE ]

What I would ultimately like is to be good and consistent enough to make this a summer job and earn additional income out of it. I'm not talking crazy numbers, but making $3000-4000 in a summer and a couple hundred a month during school by messing around.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not going to happen. It'll take you at least a month to get to 500$ starting from .5/1. Then another two or three months to get to 1500$ in 1/2 short handed. Then another 3-never months to get from 2/4 or 3/6 to 5/10.

Only at 5/10 do you really start making money that makes poker a worthwhile investment. If you don't get there, you'll be stuck making MAYBE 15-30$/hour and then when the games toughen up and they will (if they haven't already), you'll make 15$/hour. Which is a grind that's simply not worth it.

[ QUOTE ]

I know most of you are good enough to do that, so it would be helpful to hear how you did it.


[/ QUOTE ]

See steps listed above. GIve yourself 5-never months without taking out a penny and playing on day to day basis, then you'll start reaping the rewards.

[ QUOTE ]

Also, are there any free--and legal--tools that I can download to help track my hands played, in terms of how much money I've made at each level as well as how many hands I've played?

[/ QUOTE ]

Forget all this. See steps in previous post. The program you're talking about is called Pokertracker. It won't be needed until you reach 1/2 shorthanded.

[ QUOTE ]

Thanks for your feedback, I came to you guys cause I know I'm talking with some of the best.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come back when you've read both books, and are playng 2/4. That'll be in more than at least 2 months /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Good luck.

[Surfbullet]

Try the pokerroom 0.25/0.50 limit ring games - they are some of the softest I've ever seen.

Read Lee Jones' book or, better, Small Stakes Hold'Em by Ed Miller, and then the Sklansky books, and whatever else from 2+2 you can get your hands on...

you can start with $50 or $100 in the 0.25/0.50 and build your bankroll, once you hit $500 start bonus whoring(deposit into different party skins, make sure to get an affiliate - check the classifieds on these boards), play the 0.50/1.00 at party skins and you'll be at $1000 within a few weeks, whoring literally doubles one's bankroll early on.

Go camp out in the microlimits forums, read hands, post hands, respond to others hands. You'll learn. Soon the 0.50/1.00 will be cake and you'll be climbing the limits with your bonus-augmented bankroll.

Good luck. It takes hard work, but it's a helluva lot of fun. You can do it.

Surf