completing the small blind

[fireitup123]

Hi,
I don't recall seeing much discussion on completing or folding the small blind here recently or in the archives. I've printed out a ton of archives and don't recall seeing it mentioned yet. Any links?

Few examples:

a. 10/20 game 4 callers your in the SB with Ac 7h

b. 10/20 game 2 callers your in the SB with Ac 3d

c. 10/20 game 4 callers your in the SB with 6d 9d

d. 10/20 game 4 callers your in the SB with qh 3h

e. 10/20 game 4 callers your in the SB with 8h Jd

f. 10/20 game 2 callers your in the SB with 8h 10d

g. 10/20 game 3 callers your in the SB with 10d 7d

The above are just a few examples I was considering. I'm more interested in your general thoughts and ideas on this issue. Specific examples welcome. Commentary on game conditions and how it affects your calls / folds welcome.

Thanks

[edge]

I think I fold all of those.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

It really depends on the quality of your opponents and the table dynamics. For the most part it really doesn't matter, unless you're terrific or horrible postflop one way or the other.

But I would think all the offsuit aces I would fold as a general rule.

[xorbie]

[ QUOTE ]
c. 10/20 game 4 callers your in the SB with 6d 9d

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
g. 10/20 game 3 callers your in the SB with 10d 7d

[/ QUOTE ]

Are the only two I would play, but I don't play this high. Also I'm assuming with so many limpers that this is full ring?

[AZK]

It also really depends on stack sizes, and player quality, bad loose/passive calling station types with deep stacks I probably call everyone of these hands...whereas a shallow tight/aggressive game, I muck almost all of them.

[fsuplayer]

i complete with the ace high hands if one or two of the limpers plays bad, and complete all the rest.

[xorbie]

[ QUOTE ]
i complete with the ace high hands if one or two of the limpers plays bad, and complete all the rest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain the rational for completing an A3o type hand? Are you check/folding an A high flop? Check/calling? Leading out?

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you explain the rational for completing an A3o type hand? Are you check/folding an A high flop? Check/calling? Leading out?

[/ QUOTE ]

If opponents only bet when they have something, I lead.
If they are aggressive enough to say bet a Q on an AQ2 board, I normally check/call flop and lead the turn.
If they chase anything, I check.

The variations go on and on depending on who I'm against and how many players, etc...

Edit: Also depends on the board, less likely to lead out if there is some sort of draw out in a multiway pot, because then I have to give up on the turn....

[xorbie]

It just seems like completing A3 type hands is automatically forcing you to play against the lowest range of villains hands (middle pair, draws), which somewhat limits your creativity (having to basically always fold to resistance).

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you explain the rational for completing an A3o type hand? Are you check/folding an A high flop? Check/calling? Leading out?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he said if 1 or 2 of the limpers plays bad. That means that you fold top pair only flops most of the time, and hope to trap someone with a flopped full when they only have a board set or a board set of 3s when they have an overpair, or with a straight when they have a set or an overpair and won't get away from it.

[Acesover8s]

I can't imagine folding any of these out of the SB to a limp is a good strategy if having a good gambling (or at least not rock-tight) table image is important to you.

[AZK]

Yeah, I've just found throwing in the 1/2 bet is well worth the times that AK/AQ tries to get tricky and ends up giving up a lot of chips on a A93r board....

[imported_bingobazza]

With 4 limpers, and the BB to act, you're getting 11/1 to make up the SB in most of these examples. I wouldnt fold 23s to those odds. I call every example given for that reason, as well as table image.

Bingo

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
With 4 limpers, and the BB to act, you're getting 11/1 to make up the SB in most of these examples. I wouldnt fold 23s to those odds. I call every example given for that reason, as well as table image.

Bingo

[/ QUOTE ]

bingo.

that and i play better than them postflop, so the more pots i can play the better.

[creedofhubris]

I'll call anything suited and any one-gapper. Dump the offsuit aces. The J8 I'd usually toss, but with 4 callers I'd limp it.

[BobboFitos]

c
f
g
sometimes b and d and e, depending on table

edit: so i guess the only one i throw away consistantly is A

[Matt Flynn]

really not looking to sound obnoxious, but if you have to ask you should fold all of them. if the stacks are >100BB and your opponents spew chips - and i mean spew - plus you can sense bigger flushes, play the suited gappers but check-fold any one-pair hands. if you have a lot of control you can play any of them, but most players lose on all. the weak aces are the worst. Qxs is for limit. you would play more against fewer opponents, but only if you can steal.

the one caveat is it can be worth the $2-3 you give up calling with some of those hands (provided you play them well postflop) to maintain a looser image and/or scratch your need-to-play itch. but better to practice discipline.

the First Rule of no limit:

out of position = out of the action

matt

[durrrr]

assuming you play at least slightly better than your opponents post flop (if not get up and leave please) play all of these except A and D... play these 2 as well if your opponents spew chips.

-durrrr

[TheTimeIsUp]

I play everyone one of these. Again, you are getting a cheap price to stack someone, possibly.

[cero_z]

I play all of these always in live games. I think the most dangerous ones are the suited ones; it's hard to get away from a 9-high flush with just 3 flush cards on board. With the Aces, I'm mostly looking to flop small trips. I just pass if I flop an Ace, and you can't get me involved without a super-strong reason (like everyone checks twice). Aces up needs to be played cautiously. Still, you're getting decent immediate odds in all cases, and excellent implied odds if you generally outplay them. Plus, it's part of my strategy to appear to be playing every hand.

[ QUOTE ]

the First Rule of no limit:

out of position = out of the action

[/ QUOTE ]

This is good advice, to a point. The bottom line for me, though, is it depends how well you play vs. your opponents. There are lots of cases where I prefer to be out of position, because my opponents may give me great information when they bet, but little when they check behind me.

[Matt Flynn]

Cero,

You are going to get a lot of people broke with that advice. And, I am looking forward to watching you play again.

Matt

[theBruiser500]

if i'm playing vs. good opponents there is 0% chance i play any of your hands. Vs. bad opponents, when i'm multi tabling there is a very low chance i'm playing those hands because it requires good precise reads and full attention (which if you make a habit out of play alot of marginal hands at many tables you won't have. playing just 1 table against bad players, i'll still fold a lot beause of being first to act, and even when i do play a hand there i'll probably lose a small amount of money on it in the long run.

what does table image have to do with anything???

[imported_bingobazza]

[ QUOTE ]
what does table image have to do with anything???

[/ QUOTE ]

I like to create a loose gambling image, and this is a cheap way to help do that. If I see someone routinely fold from here, getting 11/1 preflop, I tighten up against them substantially in that position. Matts point about control postflop and your point about multi tabling are well taken.

I'm not convinced yet, (but am open to convincing) that opponents need to spew 'a lot' of chips to make a call here worthwhile on average, given the odds for the call in the first place.

Bingo

[Groty]

With 4 limpers, you're getting 11 to 1 to complete (assuming a check from BB). Almost any two cards are worth seeing a flop with those odds.

Just yesterday a guy scolded me for completing from SB with 6d 3d. He limped with pocket 4s and flopped a set. I flopped a straight. I stacked him and made over 100 times the amount I invested to complete. I wouldn't have gotten involved if there weren't three or four limpers in the pot.