mike l., stiffing the dealer, breakfast and Tommy's take...

[DanS]

...in no particular order.

So I'm playing the 6-12 at Lucky Chances, having resigned myself to not play 6 and 9 rather than 15 and 20 until I *earn* the bankroll for those games. One limper, and I raise my BB. Limper folds to a flop bet. I don't tip. See, I've forced myself to only tip in 9-18 and below on reasonable sized pots, but not when a steal raise or floptakeit occurs. I prepare to post my SB, dealer realizes I'm not throwing him the green chip, and scowls. Few hands later, I win a reasonable sized pot. I throw him a buck. He doesn't even acknowledge it. This makes me not happy. It's later compounded when I see a dealer coloring up her tokes (which included some $3 and $5 chips, and she cleared $80 in four downs. Unfreakingbelievable.

I thought back to mike l.'s old threads about not tipping, and while I didn't think he was a nit/[censored] like everyone else, I really can feel where he was/is coming from now. A little adversity really causes people to show their true colors (talking 'bout the dealers, not mike), and a player who realizes (as I do) that tipping is appropriate to supplement their income, but refuse to toke $4 every fuckin' pot get scowled at. That makes me mad.

I went out to breakfast this morning for the first time in a while, and my bill came to a whopping $7.96. I left $12, and I felt damn good. Not like I was a superstar by any means, but it was a hell of a lot more satisfying than (over)toking dealers. In fact, I think I'm only going to tip a buck like once every other down, and save the rest to buy Clarky, Dynasty, the Babe, or any other 2+2ers breakfast when I'm in Vegas in March. At least they'll appreciate it.

I'm done ranting about this. I feel all better now. I wonder what Tommy (who has been kind enough to call me on being FOS in the past) and others might have to say about anything and everything tipping wise.

DanS

P.S. mike l., you're my hero (seriously). Please don't take anything I said badly.

[mike l.]

a few things:

in my one foray into higher stakes (60-120) a couple weeks ago i dont think i saw more than 5 tips given the entire 4 hours. and each time it was for $1. and we're talking like $1000+ pots over and over and over.

as for dealers frowning or not saying thank you, man that peeves me. i mean, youre just giving them money. theyre not entitled to it in any way. $1 is not the biggest deal, but at least a polite thank you would be appropriate.

last thing though: i think rude, superstitious players should be forced to tip on the pots they win. it'd be like a tax on their stupidity and their inevitable cruelty towards dealers. this would include players who turn to the fella next to them and say "she kills me every time!" pointing at the dealer when they miss their gutshot chase to the river in a heads up pot. there's no excuse for making a dealer feel bad about delivering the cards.

since ive been playing in a smaller room lately on a regular basis and am trying to keep myself in a pleasant mood at all times i do tip maybe a couple times every session. i reserve this for dealers who are quiet, are paying close attention, and are quick.

[J.A.Sucker]

This is an especially irritating topic for me, since I agree with you totally. Dealers who demand tips and don't appreciate them when you get them shouldn't see another chip from you. If they have a problem, you should talk to the floorman. You're paying a lot of money to be in that game, it's the least that they can do for you. If they don't like it, then you should just go elsewhere. Same goes for restaurants; I went a horrible restaurant in San Fran last weekend, full of surly waiters and terrible Italian food (in North Beach, no less!), and I was tempted to not even pay my bill when they brought the thing. I did, and I even left a tip, though I regret doing that.

[Tommy Angelo]

"I wonder what Tommy (who has been kind enough to call me on being FOS in the past) and others might have to say about anything and everything tipping wise."

I've dealt. You and mike haven't. We can't really talk about this in a productive way because our experiences are too vastly different (or more accurately, unalike.)

But I'll go ahead and do it anway.

It has nothing to do with tipping. It has to do with how you feel about dealers and any other tip-based service jobs that hand power over to anyone with a buck. That power will be abused. To widely varying degrees. Just a matter if it's you, or the other guy, who does it.

Tommy

[brad]

1) i think you shouldnt tip the guy after he scowls at you.

2) i think you should tip a minimum of 5 bucks at restaurants that dont cost a lot, except when convenience dicatates otherwise, like its 16 bucks for 2 people and you just leave a 20.

[MRBAA]

I'm a recreational player, low stakes ($3-6-$5-10) and I tip .50 on every pot $20 or more I win. Tips are an expected part of income for dealers -- not a luxury. You are expected to tip, but not required to do so.

The dealer is expected to be courteous, professional and acknowledge your tip. When they are not/do not you are justified in witholding your tip. When they are extra good at their job and/or make the game extra good by their demeanor you should tip more. In casinos where dealers keep their own tips, this matters. When they pool them, it doesn't.

Acting as if tips are a luxury and dealers are making a bundle in salary and tips are just gravy is denying reality. When you refuse to tip, you are deciding not to do your part to give the dealer a living wage. If you are broke yourself and scrapping for every dollar, that's justifiable. If you are not, it's being a jerk IMHO.

[RINCON]

You don't want to tip don't.Thats your progative but it gets harder and harder to find good dealers.If one guy scowls at you,all the other dealers you encountered that day shouldn't be punished.Dealers make nothing in wages and put up with a ton of crap to earn the wages that they make.A great dealer probaly only makes 50-60 grand a year at most.This is not a great wage trying to make a living in expensive cities such as L.a.,Vegas,or Phoenix.Cost of living is out rageous in these cities.So you morons who lose thousands a year gambling and then bitch about tipping are fools.The higher the limit the less people tip.Most dealers would rather deal 4-8 as this is where their money comes from.These people are there to have fun and dont care about a few bucks.Its the so called pros sitting there with thousands in front of thim who cant spare a dollar.Karma goes a long way in this world.These stiffs are the ones who get there food spit in and their drinks pissed in and they dont even know it.This dont make much since but im typing it in a rage.Just remember poker is expanding rapidly and if you want good dealers tipping is a must.Dont let one [censored] dealer screw it up for the rest.

Have a nice day!!!!!

RINCON

[DanS]

Thank you all for the excellent responses.

Even though I talk tough, I have no follow through. Or, to be more accurate, I wouldn't stiff all dealers because one's an ass. I think I tipped $1 x 3 the next down.

My point wasn't that I wanted to be, or ever will be a stiff. It's like reffing/umping hockey/baseball. The good players know why you do something, even if they are a little begrudging about it. While I'm not a working pro, I do subsidize my income with poker for now. I think a dealer should appreciate a $1-2 per down toker who helps push cards in, never flings 'em at the dealer, and NEVER abuses the dealer as much as the $3-5(or more...this is California!) tipper who think that every other dealer is their "unlucky dealer." (Norcals may know "Uncle Bill," the resident needler at LC's). I played 7 downs with him, and only 3 dealers were the "unlucky" sorts).

I don't want a medal, I just want the gawddamn dealer to rap the tray with the chip and acknowledge my tip. I don't care if it's voluntary, expected, this, that, or the other. Just don't be a robot that can't wait to go play pai gow tiles with my illforgotten money. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

Dan

[Punker]

The day I started playing extensively online is the day I cut my tipping at the B&M casino back approximately 90%. I provide a casino with the same level of business that I provide an online room, and I expect to be offered competitive conditions.

[brad]

'1) i think you shouldnt tip the guy after he scowls at you.'

i mean that down or maybe even that day but after that its a fresh start.

[pudley4]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I don't want a medal, I just want the gawddamn dealer to rap the tray with the chip and acknowledge my tip.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Too many dealers, waiters, etc believe they are "entitled" to a certain tip. While tipping has become an accepted part of our poker experience, or dining experience, it's still not mandatory. If I get good service, I show my appreciation by tipping. It's only fair they should reciprocate and acknowledge my "generosity".

In a restaurant, I'll tip around 15% for acceptable service. For poor service it will be significantly less, (or even none, if appropriate). For excellent service, I'll tip more.

The same "rules" apply in the poker room. First of all, I don't tip when I win a pot. Period. It doesn't matter what pot size. If I steal the blinds and don't tip, no one cares. Why should it matter if the cards and players happen to dictate I win a huge pot? The dealer didn't intentionally do anything differently to make sure I won a big pot. He shuffled, dealt, collected bets, and pushed the pot. Does he deserve money just because he had to do his job? No.

Now at the end of his down, I'll tip. If he's done a good job and kept the game going quickly, I'll tip him a buck, even if I didn't win a hand. It's not his fault I didn't win. Good service deserves a reward. If he had difficult situations to handle, and he did it very well, he'll get a couple of bucks. If he dealt cards off the table, exposed cards, incorrectly called hands, was distracted, missed action by players, etc, he gets nothing. If it's consistently bad I'll mention it to the floor. Why should I give my hard-earned money to someone who can't do their job correctly?

It sounds cheap, but if everyone at the table acted the same way, the good dealers would be getting $10-$15 every 1/2 hour in tips, and the poor dealers would be getting next to nothing. Sounds like a good incentive to become a better dealer to me.

I would prefer the cardroom pay a higher wage to the dealers and hold them to higher standards than they currently do. Then tipping would no longer be expected and could be reserved for truly outstanding service (which is they way it should be).

[baggins]

"It has nothing to do with tipping. It has to do with how you feel about dealers and any other tip-based service jobs that hand power over to anyone with a buck. That power will be abused. To widely varying degrees. Just a matter if it's you, or the other guy, who does it. "

yeah, kind of. but it has to do with tipping too.

i drive an airport shuttle. i depend on tips as a significant part of my income. i am not rich. in fact, i haven't played poker in a while due to the fact that business is slow, i don't earn that much, and my expenses are too high to allow me to play.

but it really sucks to take a vanload of people to the airport, and have them all hop out and give you nothing! last week, i drove 30 people to the airport and made $6 in tips!! that's it!! i get an hourly wage, and i will not die if people stiff me. but come on. i have to drive your pompous a$$ for 45 minutes in rush hour, listen to you blather about your trip to Vail on your cell phone for the entire time, and load and unload your luggage, and open the door for you, and you still can't toss a buck or 2 my way? and on top of all that, most of the people that stiffed me last week didn't even have to pay the fare for the shuttle. their company picked up the tab. and they STILL didn't tip.

it just sucks.

though, the only thing more insulting than being stiffed was when i drove a full van of European businessmen who were talking about their Porsches and Jag's and other fancy cars they owned, and when they got out, one of them walked up to me and handed me $.67 and said 'here is the rest of my american money.' i felt about 8 inches tall at that point.

also, whenever i get a tip, i ALWAYS, WITHOUT FAIL say 'thank you'. always. if you are willing to tip me, i am willing to acknowledge my appreciation for it.

[Phat Mack]

I had a different experience in Lucky Chances. I was there a couple of months ago and played every game they spread. Every time I tipped a dealer, they acted like it was the first time they had ever seen one. This was especially true of the no limit game. Also, if I ever tossed a chip over a dollar and said "Toke," they made change and sent it back to me until they figured out I had intended the whole thing. I don't tip every hand, but do tip at the end of the down or whenever they do an exceptional job controlling the game.

[rkiray]

I'm sorry but this statement is ridulous IMHO. The enviroments are totally different and it is unfair to compare them. If you don't like tipping, that may be a reason to play more on-line and less in B&amp;M. But you CAN"T tip a server (as in SUN) and you really should tip live people providing good service. Expecting the card rooms to compete against the computers is impossible, but there are advantages to playing live. You can look for tells, it's more sociable, gets you out of the house, etc. But don't stiff dealers because you can't tip a computer.

Rick