2 Tags reraising my 9's

[fooz]

I open from the CO w/99. TAG on the button 3-bets. Tag in the SB 4-bets. Fish in the BB calls. And we both call.

Flop is TT2r.

Tag bets, fish folds, my action?


(20/40 PP)

[W. Deranged]

Request a seat change button.

[fooz]

HAHAHAHHA /images/graemlins/mad.gif HAHAHAHAHHA /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[sfer]

Call.

[callmedonnie]

why call? hope for rags, and think that pair is stronger then overcards? maybe even see a 9?

[W. Deranged]

Fooz,

Seriously, though. Work on seat selection here. You are in a bad position. You will get consistently isolated/shut out by the two tags, as happened here, and they will be the ones who get to reap the benefits of the fish since they are in a better position to manipulate him. I think that this post is very indicative of the importance of relative position and indicates a place where you might have the oppotunity to make better decisions.


As for the hand in question: If you plan on continuing, raising is imperative. With that said, it is quite likely on of the Tags behind you has a big pair. The button may have simply been making a solid, Taggish isolation move, but the SB capper probably has a hand. You can gamble that it's overcards and hope your hand holds up, but the play so far indicates it is extremely unlikely you will get to the river cheaply here, you will be dodging many cards when you are ahead, and you have the uncertainty of an aggressive player behind you left to act.

Pre-flop action + bad relative position + reverse implied odds = FOLD

[BigEndian]

The cap from a TAG in the SB makes me want to fold this at the earliest opportunity. Once I miss the flop, I fold. The chance of getting raised behind is just too great and you need a call to have a chance to make up the difference if the righteous 9 comes on the turn.

I think calling the flop or future action on the slim chance my 99s are good and not in a scenario where protecting them is rational is a bad idea too.

- Jim

[krimson]

I thought having the tight players on our left and loose players on our right is optimal? Our raises will take the button more often and we're given the first opportunity to put in an isolation raise. Or are more specifically looking for tight passives on our left?

[fooz]

Thanks Deranged. I hear you about position.

I folded as did the Btn...probably isolating. Even if I was ahead...the chance that either of the tags would outrun me probably tips this more to folding.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought having the tight players on our left and loose players on our right is optimal? Our raises will take the button more often and we're given the first opportunity to put in an isolation raise. Or are more specifically looking for tight passives on our left?

[/ QUOTE ]

If other TAGs have to be at the table with me, I'd prefer to have them on my left over having them sitting to my right.

[W. Deranged]

Think about how the table would lay out: the big fish is three to hero's left, which means he has basically no control over him (there are many player to act after fish and before hero). Having tight players on the left is good, but having aggressive players on the left is bad. Tags, in my opinion, should be kept on the opposite sides of the table, while fish should be kept close by. Proximity is key.

This hand is illustrative. Hero will find himself often getting isolated by taggish players. Any steal attempt/power play he might try will face doubly harsh resistance. He will be forced to play many hands against quality opposition out of position. And the presence of not one but two tags and the fish all together means hero will often have exactly 0 ability to manipulate the pot or the flow of play because of the interference. These are all bad things, needless to say.

[W. Deranged]

I agree, but having two followed by the fish seems like a very bad set up here. I'd like to stay far away from tags here, but I concur that on my left is better than on my right all else being equal.

[sfer]

The pot is 17 SBs when the action is to us. I give the hero the best hand some not insignificant percent of the time, and if he does, the button and SB are taking each other's outs. The SB cap also makes is less likely that the button will lame-raise overcards. Further, that's about as good a flop that we can hope for barring a set.

This is a hand where a lot more information is very helpful. Like, how often the hero has been stealing, how the hero is perceived, how tight are the TAGs and how aggressive. Like 3-betting on the button with 55 aggressive? And particularly important is how straightforwardly the SB plays postflop.

[chief444]

Call. You have the best hand here I think more often than you seem to believe. Button's range is pretty wide here and you're usually ahead of him at least and SB's range includes at least AK and depending on how aggressive maybe even AQ. Also, button isn't likely to raise just overcards, especially if you call. The pot is just to big to give up on this one for one flop bet IMO.

[fooz]

Why call though instead of raising?

If I raise, and get 3bet by either TAG, I can let go on the Turn.
If either smooth calls, I can somewhat comfortably lead the action and fold to pressure.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, but having two followed by the fish seems like a very bad set up here. I'd like to stay far away from tags here, but I concur that on my left is better than on my right all else being equal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having two TAGs to my left doesn't really seem ideal to me either, and this becomes more true if they'll 3-bet me preflop with any frequency. (Also, if the TAG two to my left is good at blind defense, then that's going to cause problems for me.)

While I'd rather have them on my left than on my right, I think I'd really prefer for them to be across the table, like you mentioned.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Why call though instead of raising?

If I raise, and get 3bet by either TAG, I can let go on the Turn.
If either smooth calls, I can somewhat comfortably lead the action and fold to pressure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the two overpairs chapter in SSHE.

[fooz]

Ok. Right. I know the chapter. Small edge...more pot equity on the turn...yadda-yadda.

So you pop the turn with a blank card? Do you bet the River if he calls your raise, or check behind?

And do you fold to an A or K on the turn or keep calling?

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok. Right. I know the chapter. Small edge...more pot equity on the turn...yadda-yadda.

So you pop the turn with a blank card? Do you bet the River if he calls your raise, or check behind?

And do you fold to an A or K on the turn or keep calling?

[/ QUOTE ]

This really depends on how the flop plays out. Lets say everyone calls, which will happen a lot. The turn bricks and the SB bet, BB calls. Then I would raise. Let's say the only caller is the donkey, which will happen rarely. If it's HU with the BB, I would bet. If it's HU with the button, I would bet. If it's 3-way with the button/BB, I would bet. If it's 4 way, and a blank river, I dunno.

If the board has an A or a K, I'm done.