I took a lot of guff to bring you this hand

[TreyOfLight]

I thought this hand made for an interesting exercise in pot odds and outs, because the opponent's holding is totally transparent. SB was 30/2 in 60+ hands, overtight preflop and unimaginative postflop. Rest of the table is passive preflop and generous postflop; I've therefore been limping almost 100% of hands.

PP $50 NL 6-max, 6-handed

SB has $56.25, Hero has him covered.

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Hero limps, 1 fold, CO limps, Button limps, SB minraises to $1, BB folds, Hero / CO / Button call.

Flop ($4.50) : 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif
SB bets $5, Hero calls $5, CO and Button fold.

Turn ($14.50): 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif
SB bets $15 (leaving himself $35 behind), Hero calls $15.

River ($44.50): 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif
SB bets $10, Hero pushes, SB calls $25.25 (all-in).

Final pot: $114.65.

Results and subsequent chat below in white:<font color="white">
SB has AA.
BB: hahahahahahaha
SB: lol
Button: ur really good, (hero)
Hero: ty
UTG+1: lol
Button: lol
BB: good is the last thign that was
BB: lucky as hell, stupid as hell, yes
Button: lol
Hero: keep studyin boys
Hero: watch and learn
BB: lmao
BB: not from ure ass
UTG+1: lol
Hero: no not from my ass
Hero: from my play
</font>

I'm least happy about my flop play; position smothered me and I could have gotten into a lot of trouble if there was a bigger draw behind. I would normally push here or make a big raise but I was only(!) about 47% to win and didn't think he would lay down a big PP. I flatcalled hoping for a raise or someone with TT to help bloat the pot but, in retrospect, that was a stupid pipe dream.

I thought he'd slow down on the turn with just one pair; he didn't and I was lucky to pick up 5 more outs else I'd have had a much tougher decision.

Anyway, comments appreciated.

[swolfe]

nice hand, did he have the A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif?

[DWarrior]

This is why I hate betting the pot as a standard play, it makes the pot too huge, and obviously the typical minraise coming from idiots at $50NL is incorrect.

Anyway, do you think a check/call on the river would be a better play for him?

Also, I guess I need to work on my hand reading, as all I could pin him on was "one pair", either QQ, KK, AA, or AJ.

[TreyOfLight]

Black aces.

[TreyOfLight]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I guess I need to work on my hand reading, as all I could pin him on was "one pair", either QQ, KK, AA, or AJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I made the read preflop, the flop overbet just sealed the deal.

It seems most people raise from the blinds either: (1) all the time or (2) with nothing but the best 1% of hands. There's no inbetween. He didn't raise all the time, so I put him on AA-QQ there.

From the amount of the raise, I narrowed the range to aces; queens or even kings would have to raise more (though AA vs. QQ turned out to be an academic question in this hand).

[swolfe]

a smaller bet on the turn (say $10) and check/call the river would be a better line for him...maybe even a check/fold considering there's a 4-card straight on the board.

[DWarrior]

[ QUOTE ]
a smaller bet on the turn (say $10) and check/call the river would be a better line for him...maybe even a check/fold considering there's a 4-card straight on the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I thought, but even on the flop I'd probably bet $3.50 or $4, I don't see those two bets not accomplishing anything a $5 bet would, but it wouldn't build the pot as much, and the turn bet would be smaller, accordingly.

On the river, would you really consider the straight? If I bet the way I described, then an all-in from my opponent would be huge, and it wouldn't be too difficult to fold, but a more moderate bet would be easier to call. The check/call is mainly to induce a bluff, as river betting is pointless, I guess the only hands calling you are AJ, KJ, or the dreaded weird straight, the flush draws won't pay.


Trey: I'll have to remember the SB raising observation, that's pretty good, the only problem is that people come and go so fast, I 5-table $50NL on prima and I have a table break-up every 10-15 minutes, and I can't even begin to count people leaving and busting.

[TreyOfLight]

[ QUOTE ]
That's what I thought, but even on the flop I'd probably bet $3.50 or $4, I don't see those two bets not accomplishing anything a $5 bet would, but it wouldn't build the pot as much, and the turn bet would be smaller, accordingly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct play of best pair on flops with possible 12-out draws is frustrating and complicated, to me. They know they have ~50% equity in the pot and can shovel money into it with impunity, whereas I can't be certain where I stand.

Since it's easier to offer bad odds after a safe turn, I've been favoring an underbet or check-call on the flop, with an eye toward getting money in on fourth street.

[DWarrior]

[ QUOTE ]
Since it's easier to offer bad odds after a safe turn, I've been favoring an underbet or check-call on the flop, with an eye toward getting money in on fourth street.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps I should add this to my arsenal. The only problem is that there are 3 opponents for him. Given, he screwed himself over pre-flop, so it's his own fault.

I guess I'm not faced with this problem all that much because in this case, a 12-draw would have to be a hand like 35s would have to be putting about $2.5 more pre-flop for this. I guess waiting for the turn to bet in this case would make sense, assuming that your pf play wasn't a minimum raise.

[TreyOfLight]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I'm not faced with this problem all that much because in this case, a 12-draw would have to be a hand like 35s would have to be putting about $2.5 more pre-flop for this.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could hold kings and him, AQd. It's a common enough hand but most players underestimate the strength of these draws and fail to raise with them. Still, they'll (correctly) call large flop bets and often have the odds to continue on the turn when Mr. 1-pair is forced to slow down by the huge pot.

[DWarrior]

Yeah, but that's because they pay a huge fee pre-flop. If, say, all the money goes in the middle on a 50% shot, the profit of AA comes from the pre-flop raise, and the 53s will still be a loser in this case.

However, if the pair pais off the 53s, then it's the player's mistake in allowing the 53s to realize its implied odds.