Hellmuth dogging Raymer [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

mlagoo

07-14-2005, 03:14 PM

Here is the quote, for those too lazy to read the whole article (I know you're out there =):

“She’ll probably show up at more poker tournaments in the future with mixed results. Greg Raymer has been on tour now for a whole year and he’s only made one or two final tables the whole year. Then he comes back with a lot of chips in this thing. That’s impressive, but kind of weird. Luck is a big factor.”

-- Phil Hellmuth

Pretty fking petty of Phil there, and I'm generally not a Hellmuth detractor (at least -- I generally think his rants/tableside manner are fairly harmless). He's been gradually descending into this characiture (sp) of himself, and its really unfortunate. It's like he's playing the Phil Hellmuth he sees on TV.

I think the reason you don't see Greg at a ton of final tables is because of the way he plays -- willing to take big risks early if he thinks he's ahead. The difference between Phil and Greg is that, if Greg makes a final table, it's typically going to be with one of the biggest, if not the biggest, stacks in play. Which obviously worked to his advantage last year.

Anyway, pretty low snipe there by Mr. Hellmuth. Whatever.

fnurt

07-14-2005, 03:16 PM

But luck IS a big factor. He didn't say Raymer was a bad player or anything. In fact, luck is the exact reason why a great player only makes the final table every now and then.

I am surprised this quote, out of all the stupid things Hellmuth says, caught anyone's attention.

mlagoo

07-14-2005, 03:18 PM

I understand that he didn't say anything explicitly in the sentence. But it seemed implied, at least to me. "Greg is doing good in the main event. It's wierd. Luck is a big factor."

It's possible that it's just a coincedence that he phrased it in this way, but it just seems like a bit of a jealous snipe to me. I could be reading too much into it.

I want to reiterate though, that I read it that way, and I'm generally someone who sticks up for Phil Hellmuth. So I didn't have any preconceptions.

durron597

07-14-2005, 03:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
. Then he comes back with a lot of chips in this thing. That’s impressive, but kind of weird.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raymer has been playing a lot of Ring, too.

Also, I've noticed that Raymer tends to make dubious plays early to try to get a big stack, and often the stacks aren't deep enough for it to work. Note that Raymer was down as low as 3k in the Main Event this year.

Here is an example (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=883382&page=&view=&sb =5&o=&vc=1)

MoreWineII

07-14-2005, 03:23 PM

I don't pay a ton of attention to Hellmuth, but I haven't seen his name at a final table in quite some time.

fnurt

07-14-2005, 03:23 PM

I took it to mean that it's weird how someone only makes one or two final tables in a year, and then they do great at the WSOP, of all tournaments. I mean, you could be right, but I don't see it as a huge deal.

ohkanada

07-14-2005, 03:32 PM

Well Hellmuth did make a final table in this years series. It was the 5k Pot limit Omaha that Ivey won a few weeks back.

Ken

The Dude

07-14-2005, 03:33 PM

If you're going to dog Hellmuth, it really needs to be for something other than his career tournament record.

gumpzilla

07-14-2005, 03:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I took it to mean that it's weird how someone only makes one or two final tables in a year, and then they do great at the WSOP, of all tournaments. I mean, you could be right, but I don't see it as a huge deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

The sting of it is in the comparison to Tiffany Williamson. Since he just slagged her poker playing (and probably rightly so) to then essentially put Raymer in the same boat is quite a slight. I think many people still don't realize how good Raymer actually is.

TStoneMBD

07-14-2005, 03:34 PM

i really dont think hellmuth is taking a shot at raymer here. his comments are on target and appear to be genuinely honest.

ohkanada

07-14-2005, 03:36 PM

I assume you are talking about the 64o hand? The only questionable play might be the open-raise after 4 folders. But post-flop he played it fine.

Ken

medaugh

07-14-2005, 03:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't pay a ton of attention to Hellmuth, but I haven't seen his name at a final table in quite some time.

[/ QUOTE ]

He did have a top 10 this year. Not sure which event... i'll see if i can find it. However your point is not lost. I can't help but think of last years tournament of champions where Annie Duke outplayed him all over the place. All he could do after was whine and cry about how unluckey he was/is.

Yeah it was event #19 Pot Limit Omaha. Finished 10 won 5,000 and change /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Freudian

07-14-2005, 03:37 PM

I think Phils lack of success when it comes to winning NL tournaments in the last couple of years is starting to get to him.

brassnuts

07-14-2005, 03:40 PM

I don't think it's that big of a snipe really. Also, he's pretty much correct.

brassnuts

07-14-2005, 03:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to dog Hellmuth, it really needs to be for something other than his career tournament record.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like his physique?

KneeCo

07-14-2005, 03:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Here is the quote, for those too lazy to read the whole article (I know you're out there =):

“She’ll probably show up at more poker tournaments in the future with mixed results. Greg Raymer has been on tour now for a whole year and he’s only made one or two final tables the whole year. Then he comes back with a lot of chips in this thing. That’s impressive, but kind of weird. Luck is a big factor.”

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, the way you describe it here, it makes it look less like a dig at Raymer than I think it is.

I think you need to consider what he says in the previous paragraph:
[ QUOTE ]

That’s the kind of hand that drives some pros crazy.

“She overplayed ace-queen,” said Phil Hellmuth, a pro who got knocked out in the first round. “She shouldn’t have been involved in the hand. That stuff happens. An amateur can get lucky.

“She’ll probably show up at more poker tournaments in the future with mixed results. Greg Raymer has been on tour now for a whole year and he’s only made one or two final tables the whole year. Then he comes back with a lot of chips in this thing. That’s impressive, but kind of weird. Luck is a big factor.”

[/ QUOTE ](emphasis added)

Basically, I see this as Phil calling Raymer an amateur and equating him with Tiffany Williams. I could be wrong though, but that's how I read it.

revots33

07-14-2005, 03:43 PM

There is a new book called Aces and Kings that has a profile on Hellmuth. In it he talks about tightening up his game even more and laying down pocket kings and even pocket aces pre-flop if he doesn't think he's a big enough favorite. I'll have to get the exact quote, but I was shocked when I read it. It certainly sounded like he was trying to totally eliminate even the possibility of getting drawn out on from his game. I got the impression that maybe the bad beats were getting to him and he was playing ridiculously tight as a result.

Anyway, after this year no one, including Hellmuth, can dispute Raymer's skill in tournament NL.

superleeds

07-14-2005, 03:46 PM

stretching

istewart

07-14-2005, 03:48 PM

The point of his comments was to get across his hatred for Williamson.

medaugh

07-14-2005, 03:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to dog Hellmuth, it really needs to be for something other than his career tournament record.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah like his personality or lack there of.

newfant

07-14-2005, 03:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There is a new book called Aces and Kings that has a profile on Hellmuth. In it he talks about tightening up his game even more and laying down pocket kings and even pocket aces pre-flop if he doesn't think he's a big enough favorite.

[/ QUOTE ]

I heard Phil will only play pocket aces if he knows his opponent has Ax.

BlackAces

07-14-2005, 03:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is a new book called Aces and Kings that has a profile on Hellmuth. In it he talks about tightening up his game even more and laying down pocket kings and even pocket aces pre-flop if he doesn't think he's a big enough favorite.

[/ QUOTE ]

I heard Phil will only play pocket aces if he knows his opponent has Ax.

[/ QUOTE ]
And it has to be unsuited.

Phill S

07-14-2005, 03:54 PM

/images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Dogging (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dogging) is an interesting choice of phrase.

Phill

BlackAces

07-14-2005, 03:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Dogging (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dogging) is an interesting choice of phrase.

Phill

[/ QUOTE ]
EWWWWWWWWWWW.

lemuri

07-14-2005, 03:58 PM

he will also play aces against pps 22-jj, but not 77

Profit

07-14-2005, 03:58 PM

not to go off on a huge tangent here, but do you really feel that duke outplayed hellmuth in that tourney? Or simply looking at the fact that Duke won.

Gordon Scott

07-14-2005, 04:01 PM

Wouldn't it be something if Greg went back to back 04 & 05 with these giant fields. It'ld make Hellmuth ME wins look like wins at the Sunday afternoon 25+5 on the strip.

Hellmuth is proving that it doesn't take a bad play or beat for him to act like a low class tool.

Best of Luck

SossMan

07-14-2005, 04:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't it be something if Greg went back to back 04 & 05 with these giant fields. It'ld make Hellmuth ME wins look like wins at the Sunday afternoon 25+5 on the strip.

Hellmuth is proving that it doesn't take a bad play or beat for him to act like a low class tool.

Best of Luck

[/ QUOTE ]

wins?

Chuckles1248

07-14-2005, 04:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
not to go off on a huge tangent here, but do you really feel that duke outplayed hellmuth in that tourney? Or simply looking at the fact that Duke won.

[/ QUOTE ]
When they got heads up Annie Duke outplayed Phil all day long. Not only in the hands that they showed, where she was leading him along on a string, but if you look at the chip counts after commercials, it's obvious that Duke is winning all of the small pots. At one point Phil takes a big hand off of her, I don't remember exactly what happened, but the stacks were at about 1.4mil to 600k after that, and then they go to commercial and the next hand they show, Duke has evened it up to around a million each.

BeerMoney

07-14-2005, 04:24 PM

Does anybody know if Greg has won money playing in these tournies since his win in WSOP?

Everybody who follows 2+2 knows Greg's a great player, but if all Hellmuth has are numbers that say, he's lost $$ in big buy in tournies since last year, that's all he can go on.

Hellmuth's not great with words.

And that woman dancing around after she won with ace queen is ridiculous. Its ok to run around after you hit a number on a roulette wheel cause you're playing the house. Dancing around after you lay a beat on someone's totally different and classless.

-Skeme-

07-14-2005, 04:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i really dont think hellmuth is taking a shot at raymer here. his comments are on target and appear to be genuinely honest.

[/ QUOTE ]

sekrah

07-14-2005, 04:30 PM

Hellmuth had a 7th and a 10th... I think he cashed in another one too.. 3 cashes in one WSOP isn't bad at all.

MushashiAce

07-14-2005, 04:33 PM

I don't think that is a low smipe what so ever, Hellmuth was just statng the facts, he wasn't taking any shots at raymer as a player. Hellmuth is usually alot different when he is not sitting down at the table, so i don't think his statement was meant to be offensive.

Gordon Scott

07-14-2005, 04:40 PM

Didn't Hellmuth win in. woops thats right he only has one.

My mistake....

meow_meow

07-14-2005, 04:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hellmuth had a 7th and a 10th... I think he cashed in another one too.. 3 cashes in one WSOP isn't bad at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cashing in 4 tourneys when you play 30 and they pay 10% of the field isn't exactly notable either...

Scooterdoo

07-14-2005, 04:49 PM

His play in that hand would not be considered too 'dubious' or wild by many/most. Sure he had a very week hand preflop, but he was in the cu and it was checked to him and he's trying to create action -- either take down the blinds or get some callers and perhaps hit his flop with his small suited cards and possibly catch someone with a high pair who cannot put him on those cards. The flop gives him a straight draw so he's feeling good and he easily has the price to call the small bet. His turn call is a close decision, but his stack is deep enough relative to the bet and the implied odds if he hits are definitely worth taking a shot. Again, I don't see this play as anything too crazy.

Smackdab

07-14-2005, 04:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Dancing around after you lay a beat on someone's totally different and classless.

[/ QUOTE ]

DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.......
DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

VBM

07-14-2005, 04:55 PM

i think Hellmuth is a tool; but i also think people are making far too big a deal out of this. Luck is a huge factor in any single tournament and saying someone is lucky or has gotten lucky isn't dogging their skills.

LLKOOLK1

07-14-2005, 04:59 PM

Overall money wise, he has. And cashing in tourneys, I belive he is also ahead of Phil. He had that cash in the WPT Championship, and the Final table of the 1500 NL wsop. Phil won the Headsup championship, forr 500,000, but overall i think greg is having a better year. Sorry Phil

BadVoodooX

07-14-2005, 05:04 PM

Phil's tournament record like TJ Cloutier's is largely pre WPT when fields were less than 1/10 of the size of modern WPT or WSOP Hold'em events. In short they aren't worth squat compared to winning or making final tables in 3 or 4 WPT or WSOP NLHE events in the last 2 years. Phil's only made a few of those and hasn't exactly racked up impressive wins when he's made the final table either.

Miles Ahead

07-14-2005, 05:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And cashing in tourneys, I belive he is also ahead of Phil.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so. At the moment, anyway, that one win at the heads up tourney puts Phil ahead.

Miles Ahead

07-14-2005, 05:30 PM

He did win a WSOP NLHE event in 2003 against a larger field than what you see in many of the WPT events.

johnc

07-14-2005, 05:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i really dont think hellmuth is taking a shot at raymer here. his comments are on target and appear to be genuinely honest.

[/ QUOTE ]

He did take a shot at Raymer. Hellmuth is very out of place not being in the poker limelight - Raymer is "stealing" his place on poker's centerstage. The only way Hellmuth is capable of dealing with this try to discredit Raymer's success in 2004 and his success so far in 2005. Hellmuth is not going to come right out and talk smack about Raymer (that would be media suicide) but he'll continue to take these little potshots at him that he knows only the poker world will hear.

CrazyN8

07-14-2005, 05:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
“She overplayed ace-queen,” said Phil Hellmuth, a pro who got knocked out in the first round. “She shouldn’t have been involved in the hand. That stuff happens. An amateur can get lucky.

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys keep putting the emphasis in the wrong spot. Tell us phil, how would you play AQ from the rail ? I thing I would value call my nuts from the rail. [censored], I'm the best poker player in the world watching the WTP on TV.

Alexthegreat

07-14-2005, 05:41 PM

How many times do we have to go over this??

Raymer has said many times he was very lucky last year, and he's said he was very lucky this year already....He's only made a few final tables since he came on the tour, like hellmuth said...Hellmuth also said it was impressive, which it is....but he's bang on when he says that it is very lucky.....

DesertCat

07-14-2005, 05:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Check out his quote at the end of the article...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8567118/

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course Raymer is getting lucky, as Phil said, if there wasn't luck involved, he'd win every time. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

ggbman

07-14-2005, 06:06 PM

Without even look at this years Main Event where Raymer will make another big score, here is Raymer's (http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=7955) tournament record over the last year and here is Hellmuth's. (http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php? a=r&n=117) Phil has no busniess making comments like that given the sucess that Raymer has had in the last year, winning the ME, making a few solid cashes in the with fields of 500+ AND making the final table of yet ANOTHEr 2 thousand person tourney in the world series, not even count this ME yet.