Hand for the archives: 75s

[BWebb]

Live 80-160. I'll provide reads give at the time.

Limper 1-Name tourney player who is loose
Limper 2-A fish that plays every hand
CO-No read given.
Button-Well known and respected 2+2 player
SB & BB-No read given.

Hero is dealt 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif and calls after two limpers, two off the button. (I'm puting this in large type: PLEASE DO NOT DEBATE PREFLOP)

CO call, button raises, blinds call, limpers call. 7 to the flop for 14 sbs.

Flop is: T /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Checked to Limper #2 who bets, hero calls, CO folds, button raises, folded to L#2 who 3-bets, hero calls, button calls.

Turn: K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

L#2 bets, hero calls, button raises, L#2 calls, hero calls.

I'll stop here. Thoughts?

[BigEndian]

I don't like any of it, preflop included (that wasn't a debate =).

- Jim

[W. Deranged]

I think the flop call with two players including the PFR left to act behind and the possibility of a check-raise is spewing. Certainly, hero has a fair number of outs here with the gutshot and the pot is pretty large (15 bets). But, as occurred in this situation, any significant flop raising is going to cut those odds right down. Hero ended up putting in three bets here to win the 14 BB pre-flop + 6 on the flop. Even if he can count on getting 5BB on later streets a call becomes marginal here at best, getting 10-1 effective on the gutshot draw. The back door possibilities add some value but I doubt it's not that great considering neither the spade flush or the higher straight is to the nuts and possible turn action will may cut down drawing odds further on that street.

[hellite]

you played this hand about as poor as you could.
(1) You limped with a terrible hand; it would be nice to see a cheap flop with this hand, but you are ruined by the button raise which now will give you odds to call on a flopped draw.
(2) You flopped a gutshot with a back door flush; id call the bet here and then the raise
(3)The turn ruins you; How can you possibly call the bet? The likelihood that the button will raise again is very good. Do you really want to pay 2 BBs for a 3 out draw? Your turn call is terrible.

Your play up until the turn was fine. You got involved in a multi way pot with a hand that you should have mucked; then you had to call with a poor draw; it is time to give up on the turn

[BWebb]

[ QUOTE ]
(3)The turn ruins you; How can you possibly call the bet? The likelihood that the button will raise again is very good.

[/ QUOTE ]

What % would set the likelyhood that he is raising again? 10, 20, 70?

[hellite]

Lets put it this way. Button raises preflop. What hands do you put button on? Button raises this flop, now what hands do you put him on? A king falls on the turn - uh oh!
I cant set a percentage on it other than saying - you do not even have odds to call one bet! You have 3 clean outs. You cannot call profitably. If you give yourself 4 outs (which you shouldn't) it is still tough to call anticipating the button raise. You see, the button either has a strong hand or could be on a flush draw. If he has a strong hand he will raise. IF HE HAS A FLUSH DRAW YOU HAVE 3 OUTS AND CANNOT PROFITABLY CALL THE TURN BET. So if the likelihood that the button will raise is .0000000000001% you should fold to the turn bet.

[sy_or_bust]

I won't account for the flush draw. I'm not sure how much, mathematically to discount outs in that scenario. I haven't done this in a while so bear with me.

1st flop call is 15-1, but worse when Button raises. If Button always raises, it's still a bad call w/ implied odds. If he raises 50%, you're fine. I think this is a reasonable call.

2nd flop call is 10-1, and if implied odds even slightly outweigh 'cap odds' (they should), it's a call.

turn call is ~12-1 and chance of being raised is unclear. Probably a call.

[Paxosmotic]

The actual play of the hand was fine in terms of pot odds, I just don't like the preflop. Best advice for hero is to find a new seat and put the 2+2er on his right if he wants to limp marginal one-gaps.

[sthief09]

I think the first flop call is close but fine. I would expect the 2p2'er to cap here a lot given that he raised the flop, giving him 23-3. hearts are possible here too. the pot is big so it's one of those rare times you can look at a gut shot as a cross between a flop decision and a flop/turn decision. since he's basically priced into seeing a river, it's closer than it looks.

now on the turn he's getting 14-1, and while I'd expect a raise somewhat often, it looks like he can call. it's unlikely hearts are out when button just calls the turn. I'd think he'd cap with a A/images/graemlins/heart.gifK/images/graemlins/heart.gif type hand. button probably has us on a draw by this point, so he could be raising an overpair for a free showdown. I think he's very capable of doing this without a set.

this isn't really a particularly interesting hand, at least until I see the discussion. it just looks like a math problem. it's just a bunch of marginal calls strung together.

[callmedonnie]

The flop call is poor as you're not getting 10 to 1 for your gutshot, plus all the action behind you. Once it is raised and reraised just muck.

Your turn was as horrendous as your flop.

[BigEndian]

With an aggressive 2+2er behind me and sitting at a table that is likely to play agressively post flop, I think hero did his best to put himself at the biggest disadvantage. The flop calls are the most forgiving, but preflop is the pits and on the turn you're asking the 2+2er to ass rape you.

- Jim

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
Live 80-160. I'll provide reads give at the time.

Limper 1-Name tourney player who is loose
Limper 2-A fish that plays every hand
CO-No read given.
Button-Well known and respected 2+2 player
SB & BB-No read given.

Hero is dealt 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif and calls after two limpers, two off the button. (I'm puting this in large type: PLEASE DO NOT DEBATE PREFLOP)

CO call, button raises, blinds call, limpers call. 7 to the flop for 14 sbs.

Flop is: T /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Checked to Limper #2 who bets, hero calls, CO folds, button raises, folded to L#2 who 3-bets, hero calls, button calls.

Turn: K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

L#2 bets, hero calls, button raises, L#2 calls, hero calls.

I'll stop here. Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't pull up any more mike l. hands /images/graemlins/wink.gif(at least, that's my guess at who this was)

Preflop is ok. First flop call is fine, even if you expect it to get raised behind you. Second flop call is marginal, since Button may cap.

Turn is tough, because if button doesn't raise, you should have called; but if button does raise, you made a bad call. If button raises only half the time, it's an ok call.

[BWebb]

[ QUOTE ]
Lets put it this way. Button raises preflop. What hands do you put button on? Button raises this flop, now what hands do you put him on? A king falls on the turn - uh oh!
I cant set a percentage on it other than saying - you do not even have odds to call one bet!

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, you don't need to set the exact percentage, but you should try to determine some sort of range. It will improve your game if you start thinking that way.

As for odds to call, his odds are approximately 12.5:1. Meaning he will need to collect 1.5 bb the rest of the hand if he makes his hand to break even. This will easily happen. This is where you need to consider how often the button will raise behind here.

[ QUOTE ]

So if the likelihood that the button will raise is .0000000000001% you should fold to the turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is incorrect. You should do the math to find out the real number. This is not something you can do at the table, so it is something that should be worked on now.

P.S. I didn't play the hand, it is from the archives.

[BWebb]

[ QUOTE ]
The flop call is poor as you're not getting 10 to 1 for your gutshot

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the backdoor flush draw is worth about 1 out that you are not considering.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
The flop call is poor as you're not getting 10 to 1 for your gutshot, plus all the action behind you. Once it is raised and reraised just muck.

Your turn was as horrendous as your flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

what?