Give me a line

[sfer]

Party 20/40. First hand, I post in the CO.

Folded to me and I raise AA. Button, unknown but stats are 30/8/2.2 over a reliable sample size calls, blinds fold, HU for 5.5 SBs.

Flop is J77, suits unimportant. I bet, button raises, and you give me opinions.

[baronzeus]

3bet

[imported_CaseClosed326]

I would three bet here, be straight foward.

If you wanted to be tricky you could call and c/r the turn, and go fromt there. But I like the first option better.

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
3bet

[/ QUOTE ]

yes 3bet flop

after that I would put in exactly 2 or 3 bets on turn and river.

[W. Deranged]

Sfer,

I like a flop call and a turn check-raise. Here's why:

1. The board is fairly drawless (except for the gutshots).
2. Your opponent is pretty agressive (2.2).
3. Your opponent's most likely hand (a J) is one that is unlikely to let the turn get checked through.
3a. Your opponent's most likely hand is one that is likely to pay down the turn and the river if you check-raise.
4. Your hand has few outs against it.
5. The board is such that your opponent may think you're putting a play on (he likely won't give you credit for a 7 and may not consider overpairs seriously), which will increase the likelihood you get called or even played back at on the turn.

There are certainly cases where this line is too "stock" but I think this situation sets up well for it.

[brettbrettr]

3-bet or lead -three-bet the turn. The problem is that if an ace or king comes on the turn he might go into call-down mode with a middle pair or even just fold. But he might raise again with AQ or KQ....

Tell me what the turn is and I'll tell you my flop plan /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
3bet

[/ QUOTE ]

The only hands we are behind here are JJ, 77, and A7 that could cold call a raise with those stats. You are ahead of AJ, KJ, QJ, KK, QQ, so that's a lot of hands that are drawing to about 2 outs here.

call his bet, and check-raise the turn.

[W. Deranged]

Then again, a turn K or Q might very well give villain "top" two pair which could pay off big if we wait.

I don't think an action killing card is much of a concern here. An A would be the most worrisome in that regard, but we have two tied up. As I said, a K may in fact be a good card as often as a bad one.

[brettbrettr]

I don't like the c/r at all. If the button puts hero on a cold steal--which seems eminently reasonable--the c/r will convince him otherwise. Especially with the paired board.

[Malcom Reynolds]

How about call, check-call, bet?

[brettbrettr]

I think a king that's playing would most likely have 3-bet Hero's steal raise. Not all Kings, but most TAGs with an ace or king who are playing here are 3-betting Hero in a flash.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
I think a king that's playing would most likely have 3-bet Hero's steal raise. Not all Kings, but most TAGs with an ace or king who are playing here are 3-betting Hero in a flash.

[/ QUOTE ]


The dude is 30-8-2. he's not a TAG. If anything he's passive preflop.

[W. Deranged]

I have to think on average this is not extracting max. value. This line is better reserved for Way ahead/Way behind situations where one of your goals is to minimize losses when way behind... I think Sfer is generally way ahead here and should be more concerned with getting extra bets in.

[BWebb]

A guy that aggressive, there is a good chance a donk-bet will get raised on the turn so you can 3-bet. I'd call, and donk it on the turn.

[W. Deranged]

Agreed, Baron. I think villain has exactly the kind of profile I'd expect to see cold-calling with hands like AJo, KJ, and QJs. He may get aggressive on later streets but pre-flop he seems pretty loose-passive based on the numbers (he calls almost three times as much as he raises pre-flop).

[Malcom Reynolds]

Yes, but if he's way ahead here but his opponent is bluffing with nothing, you give him a chance to fold. I don't know what unknowns are like at Party 20/40 but I assuming they know how to fold a bluff against a raise.

[BigEndian]

This looks like an incredibly simple hand so I'm curious why you posted it. Jam chips in now and call down if the outlook doesn't look locked in. If you feel some degree of fanciness is in order, wait until the turn or river to either jam or CR.

Btw, saying suits are not important automatically makes people think the player might have a real hand. At least it does me. I.e. there isn't a flush draw they could be leveraging.

- Jim

[W. Deranged]

I'm of the opinion the turn check-raise maximizes this bluffing value. You'd only get more value if your opponent continues and bluffs the river when you call the turn... you don't even let him do that by betting the river. My line allows a bluffer to go to work while also extracting slightly more from hands that contain a J (or even QQ, 10 10, etc... for that matter.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Btw, saying suits are not important automatically makes people think the player might have a real hand. At least it does me. I.e. there isn't a flush draw they could be leveraging.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. Suits unimportant should be replaced with rainbow flop.

[BigEndian]

This invariably looks like you have either JJ, AA or KK to your opponent. Not that this isn't still appropriate against some players, but this is what you are screaming in their ear.

- Jim

[clownshoes]

I generally enjoy 3betting this much more than waiting for the turn to c/r
Theres a good chance he will cap the flop, then you could go for the turn c/r which would be great fun

[sy_or_bust]

To even a mildly aware Button, CO's raise is a potential any-2. From that standpoint the float probably indicates that Villain holds a weak and probably speculative hand, and Villain's flop raise can easily be a pure bluff. I think this is an important factor. The line I'd take against a probable J or low-mid PP is not the line I want against a bluffer. If that's true, I don't 3-bet the flop. I wouldn't stop n go either. I'd much rather checkraise the turn (would love to do this on the river, but I doubt it can happen).

[brettbrettr]

A 75/25er calls 3 times as much as he raises pre-flop.

An 8% PFR isn't all that low.

[brettbrettr]

No, can't go WA/WB. Its too likely button puts Hero on a steal and is willing to showdown much less than he normal.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
This invariably looks like you have either JJ, AA or KK to your opponent. Not that this isn't still appropriate against some players, but this is what you are screaming in their ear.

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]


That's fine...but uh...can't we just assume hes a moran?

[BWebb]

[ QUOTE ]
To even a mildly aware Button, CO's raise is a potential any-2. From that standpoint the float probably indicates that Villain holds a weak and probably speculative hand, and Villain's flop raise can easily be a pure bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's a weak or speculative hand, a check on the turn gives a chance for a free card. If it's a bluff, a checkraise keeps him from bluffing on the river. I think a turn checkraise is the worst option of those given so far.

[soweak.]

without looking at any responses, my line would be to call and C/R the turn. You are only behind JJ, J7, and any hand with a 7 in it. It is most likely your opponent has put you on a steal, or has 3-bet a hand you have dominated right now (KK, QQ, AJ, AK). give him some rope on the flop so you can get two bets out of him on the turn.

if you are 3-bet call down.

[sy_or_bust]

[ QUOTE ]
I think a turn checkraise is the worst option of those given so far.

[/ QUOTE ]

It isn't great if Villain has a hand, but it's certainly not horrible. Still, I think a pure bluff is much more likely here, when Villain will only rarely check behind on the turn, and even sometimes feel compelled to call the raise with a weak hand fearing another bluff. Neither player has given the other great reason to suspect big hands.

[W. Deranged]

True, but:

1. A player who only raise 8% if probably not often isolating with hands like KJ.

2. A 3-1 call/raise pre-flop ratio is indicative of flop passivity. Given, it's the same ratio as a 75/25 player but I don't particularly see how that extreme case bears on villian-in-question. He doesn't raise as much as a TAG/2+2 player would and I think it's inaccurate to assume he'll automatically be trying to isolate with certain hands given his stats.

[Jeff W]

3-bet, keep lead until he raises again.

[joker122]

if you 3bet the flop you'll be called down by hands like 22-88 and ace high more often.

[molawn2mo]

After having spent 20 minutes trying to come up with a line that will make Hero appear weak so that the relatively aggro postflop Villain will be comfortable using his aggression, I can't come up with one. As such, I think call the flop, bet, bet (the river lead being interesting if an over comes but I have to guess that Hero can't feign weakness and CR the river). Hopefully Villain will catch something and raise. If he hits his 2 outer... oh well.

More interesting to me is to read the replies, here, and how many posters think hero needs to protect this hand. Maybe I'm off the wall, but I'm looking extract value, not protect.

Am I way off?

[W. Deranged]

I think this is an interesting point that may veer into some rather psychological territory. I've seen players who will take the flop three-bet more seriously because they think it's less likely to represent a move. Sometimes a turn check-raise will anger people and make them do unexpected/erratic things. I'm not sure.

I'm very interested by this fact opinion, joker, because I think this is one of the keys to the hand. I'll admit this is an area where my lack of experience (particularly at the online limit in question) really shows.

[sfer]

Party 20/40. First hand, I post in the CO.

Folded to me and I raise AA. Button, unknown but stats are 30/8/2.2 over a reliable sample size calls, blinds fold, HU for 5.5 SBs.

Flop is J77, suits unimportant. I bet, button raises, I 3-bet, button calls.

Turn is a 5. I bet, button raises, and now what?

[brettbrettr]

Call and bet-call river?

[molawn2mo]

[ QUOTE ]
Party 20/40. First hand, I post in the CO.

Folded to me and I raise AA. Button, unknown but stats are 30/8/2.2 over a reliable sample size calls, blinds fold, HU for 5.5 SBs.

Flop is J77, suits unimportant. I bet, button raises, I 3-bet, button calls.

Turn is a 5. I bet, button raises, and now what?

[/ QUOTE ]

3 betting very well may push him off his J. So... call the raise and donk/call the river. 2 bets on the river seems right, if he chooses.

A thinking villain ought not bet the river UI since he has, at the very least, represented TPTK to you so Villain ought check behind. He will call 1, though.

[Entity]

Hey dude,

I tend not to [censored] around when I'm out of position. I 3-bet and lead. When I have position I'll often call the raise intending to raise the turn.

Rob

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Party 20/40. First hand, I post in the CO.

Folded to me and I raise AA. Button, unknown but stats are 30/8/2.2 over a reliable sample size calls, blinds fold, HU for 5.5 SBs.

Flop is J77, suits unimportant. I bet, button raises, I 3-bet, button calls.

Turn is a 5. I bet, button raises, and now what?

[/ QUOTE ]

This dude is just too aggro to fold here. I call and check-call. I hate it when people use a free shodown play (which he might here w/AJ, etc), but I don't want to get popped on the river. I'm not looking to fold this hand though.

Rob

[chief444]

I'd probably just call and check/call the river. If he takes a free showdown with some smaller pocket pair J's up then that's life. I'd prefer not to give him the option of raising/reraising better hands though since he may not even pay off a turn 3-bet with some worse hands but I'm seeing a showdown myself every time here.

I think the flop 3-bet is fine as well. I usually don't screw around OOP. Although if the opponent was a little tighter (more capable of folding the flop or turn if you 3-bet) then calling is a decent option since the opponent likely has a 2-outer when you're ahead with the board paired.

[MaxPower]

Give him excessive action because he will never put you on pocket aces. I wouldn't worry about knocking him out with a check-raise either because he will probably call you down with a lot of hands.

[Paxosmotic]

I will also join the cries of call, check/call. Might be AJ but he could have fell into a seven, who knows.

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
Party 20/40. First hand, I post in the CO.

Folded to me and I raise AA. Button, unknown but stats are 30/8/2.2 over a reliable sample size calls, blinds fold, HU for 5.5 SBs.

Flop is J77, suits unimportant. I bet, button raises, I 3-bet, button calls.

Turn is a 5. I bet, button raises, and now what?

[/ QUOTE ]

3-bet and if he caps it just check-call the river. If you hadn't posted in the CO, you might be more cautious, but he is probably going to overplay his hand in this case.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Party 20/40. First hand, I post in the CO.

Folded to me and I raise AA. Button, unknown but stats are 30/8/2.2 over a reliable sample size calls, blinds fold, HU for 5.5 SBs.

Flop is J77, suits unimportant. I bet, button raises, I 3-bet, button calls.

Turn is a 5. I bet, button raises, and now what?

[/ QUOTE ]

3-bet and if he caps it just check-call the river. If you hadn't posted in the CO, you might be more cautious, but he is probably going to overplay his hand in this case.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did thus for the identical reasons. He capped the turn, I called, the river blanked and went check/check. He had 66 and MHWG.

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
Party 20/40. First hand, I post in the CO.

Folded to me and I raise AA. Button, unknown but stats are 30/8/2.2 over a reliable sample size calls, blinds fold, HU for 5.5 SBs.

Flop is J77, suits unimportant. I bet, button raises, and you give me opinions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Call with the intention of either (a) check-raising the turn or (b) check-calling the turn and check-raising the river.

While I like (b) I am probably too risk avers to execute it and would likely go for (a).

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
Turn is a 5. I bet, button raises, and now what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Three-bet. If he caps I probbaly just check-call the river but I think you could still justify bet-calling the river given how disguised your hand likely is.

[brettbrettr]

I"m not saying I thought of this before I saw the results but given the play there seem to be a good number of hands--PP's-- Villan would check-behind on this river so the check-raise seems extremely risky.

I find that people who go gonzo on paired boards don't often bet the river...

[baronzeus]

If you bet and he raises the turn you have to just call down I think...he called the flop with the intention of raising the bet you made on the turn--I think you're behidn here and he's still showing a lot of strength.

How horrible would a fold be? How often are you good here?

[NickRegino]

3-bet and re-evaluate on the turn, he could be just betting the J.