A little help

[Rosencrantz1]

I've been searching the B&M forum for 30 minutes now in prep for my first B&M visit (The Taj for some 2/4 or 3/6 limit).

A few questions:

1) How do I handle running to the bathroom or going to get a bite to eat? Leave chips on the table? Do I have to do anything in terms of keeping the seat (e.g., tell a floor person? Announce to the table/dealer that I'll be back, etc.)?

2) I saw some other posts where people mentioned "Taking your cash from the table with you, but you can leave your chips" -- what on earth is that about? Am I supposed to have cash on the table while I play? (I was planning on a $150 buy-in, if that helps)

3) It sounds like, for safety's sake, using the valet parking is the way to go. Anyone know the cost of this at the Taj? Any more general safety advice?

4) Any other advice for a B&M first-timer? I'm frankly more worried about the logistics than I am about the card playing, which I seem to have a decent grasp on.

Thanks.

[topspin]

Most places will let you miss several rounds (3 is common) of blinds before you get kicked off the table, so unless you're having some sort of gastrointestinal catastrophe, you'll have plenty of time for a bathroom break. There's often some provision for going off for lunch or dinner too; it's easiest to just ask when you arrive.

If you're playing 2/4 or 3/6 in Vegas, then frankly you're not carrying enough cash to worry about being robbed, especially on the Strip -- I really doubt that any random tourist has less than the $200-300 that you'd be carrying around in your pocket for buy-ins.

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

(1) "I will be back in a couple of minutes" works fine.

(2) If you take your chips off the table they will likely give away your seat. Never leave cash on the table.

(3) Alone in AC, you may want to valet park -- but I have never had problems with self parking.

(4) Wear dark sunglasses and a cap and always stare down your opponent for at least 30 seconds before making a decision. In fact you should be doing this when playing online as well. Don't you watch TV?

(4) More seriously, once you have made your decision, I would recommend announcing it verbally -- check, bet, call, raise -- before actually moving your chips... causes less confusion.

[Rosencrantz1]

[ QUOTE ]

(2) If you take your chips off the table they will likely give away your seat. Never leave cash on the table.

[/ QUOTE ]
The dealer/casio security will more or less make sure they remain untouched? And I'm still confused as to why I would HAVE cash on the table in the first place?

[ QUOTE ]

(4) Wear dark sunglasses and a cap and always stare down your opponent for at least 30 seconds before making a decision. In fact you should be doing this when playing online as well. Don't you watch TV?

[/ QUOTE ]
I am half-tempted to wear a WPT shirt and Greg Raymer glasses just to present a fishy image. Either that or when I sit down, turning to the guy next to me and saying "Is it flush beats straight or the other way around?"

[ QUOTE ]

(4) More seriously, once you have made your decision, I would recommend announcing it verbally -- check, bet, call, raise -- before actually moving your chips... causes less confusion.

[/ QUOTE ]
I always declare outloud, even at home on-line.


Seriously, though, thanks for the input. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[other1]

Yeah, the dealer will watch, the cameras are always watching. I'll get up from playing 20/40 leaving my chips and not worry. I certainly wouldn't worry playing low limits. The table at a casino is probably the safest place in the world for your chips.

You could have money on the table because cash usually plays in limit.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

The fact you searched makes me more than happy to answer all your questions, plus add more info.

leave your chips at the table when you get up to eat, use restroom, whatever. This is standard practice, your chips will be just fine, and they save your spot while you're gone. You have up to about an hour to do whatever, don't sweat your chips.

Don't leave cash on the table. Buy chips and leave them instead.

My advice for safety in AC is to stay in the casinos or on the boardwalk very close to the casinos. Two blocks off the casinos is ghetto city, very dangerous if you don't know the city.

Keep your money in your front pocket and your hand on your money when you are walking around to avoid pickpockets.

Here's a repost for you of some advice for internet players, I posted this many moons ago and re-post it about once a week.

Yes, I have advice. But I feel slightly RANTY tonight, so bear with me....

Please do not be one of those internet players who can play poker well in a strategic sense, but has no idea how to conduct themselves in a live cardroom. These internet wanna-bees are everywhere these days, and they are just annoying as hell for us B&M regulars. It's like they get used to the internet doing all the work for them, and like a child who cannot entertain themselves without watching TV, they are inept and unable to function without the beeps and buzzes they are used to getting online.

Pay attention! Gawk at the waitress BETWEEN hands, not while everyone is waiting for you to act.

If you are going to wear glasses, make sure your eyesight is sufficient that you can actually SEE the cards, suits, etc.

Don't blow smoke in other people's faces if it's a smoking room. Be polite with your smokes. If it's a non-smoking room, buy some listerine strips (or something) to keep your neighbors from gagging on your breath when you come back from smoking!

Play fast and learn the mechanics of live cardroom play before you sit down and irritate the dealer and other players in the game. If you have to sign up for "lessons" then do it. Lee Jones book does have some good advice on cardroom ettiquette. Read it if you aren't sure.

don't friggin' count out your chips one at a friggin' time out of your rack (which of course most internet wanna-be cardroom players insist on keeping on the table). Take the chips out of your rack and cut them like you know what you are doing. Single chip counters bug me, particularly if they are obviously internet players. Us B&M regulars are already aware that three comes after four, four comes after five, etc etc and don't need a fresh physical demonstration EVERY SINGLE TIME IT IS YOUR TURN TO BET/RAISE/CALL. Six chips are stacked 3 and 3, eight chips are stacked 4 and 4, ten chips are stacked 5 and 5, etc. Stacks of seven or nine or eleven or seventeen are completely useless, and the dealer will break them down anyway, thus wasting time counting chips you could have already properly stacked in the first place.

Stacks of chips on the table are in stacks of TWENTY. It's much easier to verify stacks for change/color up if you don't stack them by 23 or 39 or 14. If you are all-in in a no limit game, having your chips already stacked in a convenient manner will speed up the game immensely. Remember, the dealer MUST count your chips when you go all-in, so make it EASY for them.

Use basic courtesy and common sense when dealing and speaking to others involved in the game, including the dealer. I understand that the internet is a free-for-all contest to see who can be the most obnoxious, and I was sometimes guilty of this myself when I used to (GAG) play online. However, in a live cardroom this crap doesn't fly. While there are 50,000,000,000,001 idiot moron fish waiting to take the place of anyone who you piss off on the internet, in a live game, if you piss off the fish you may wind up in a game full of rocks with a profitability margin of 0.000000000000000001%.

Let the DEALER run the game. Listen to them and follow their commands/prompts. While some dealers these days are inept and incompetent, most can run the game efficiently enough. They are ALL much better if you don't make their job difficult.

Tip the dealers when you win a pot. An extremely large tip is not required, but don't be a friggin' stiff either. I generally tip 2% of the pot, but usually try to tip a buck even if the pot is less than $50. If it's REALLY small I don't tip a buck, but might tip a half dollar or couple or three quarters anyway. Stealing the blinds does not require a tip. Tip your waitress for your drinks, and give the chip runner a buck when they bring you your chips! Live cardrooms require tipping! If the floorperson or brush does something particularly nice, it never hurts to tip them as well (most cardrooms allow tipping floorpeople, tho a few don't, obviously they will tell you if it's not allowed).

Protect your hand! This is more important than what beats what! Cup your hands around your cards and lift up the corners, peeking in the little "window" to see what you have. Don't remove your cards from the felt! They should never leave the table! Don't let go of them until A) they have killed all the losing hands and are pushing the chips your direction, or B) you are certain your hand is a loser. Once your cards touch the muck pile, THEY ARE COMPLETELY AND FOREVER DEAD AND YOU HAVE NO FURTHER RIGHT TO THE POT REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU HAVE.

FLOORMAN'S DECISIONS ARE FINAL. Don't argue with the floorman!

If you want to raise, say "RAISE" loudly and clearly. Then you may count the chips out at your leisure. If you try to raise (without saying it out loud) and make multiple motions towards your chips, you have made a "string bet" and it won't be allowed to stand. Multiple motions for bets or raises are just not kosher in a live cardroom. Just say it out loud "RAISE" and you'll be fine. If you are playing no limit, you might say "raise to fifty" or "make it $110." Then you can count them out as you wish without fear of being guilty of a string raise (which a dealer won't allow to stand, and correctly so).

Oversized chip rule: If you are going to call with an oversized chip, just tossing it in the pot indicates a CALL. Say the bb is $2 and you wish to make it $5. Well, if you just toss in a red chip and don't say anything, YOU HAVE CALLED. If you say "RAISE" and toss in a red chip, now the bet is legitimately $5. Another way to deal with this is to just use five $1 chips instead of a $5 chip.

When you fold, push your cards to where the dealer doesn't have to do the friggin limbo stretch across the table to retrieve them. Same thing for when you place a bet.

Place your bet in front of you, and far enough where the dealer can easily collect it, and in the proper stack configuration for the bet you are making (see above paragraph on stacking bets). Don't splash the friggin' pot! It's cool when teddy-kgb does it, but it is a real annoyance when some moron does it in a live game and the dealer has to count down the pot to verify the bets.

In general, do everything you can to get that game going fast and to make the fish feel comfortable! Live play is slower than internet play, like usually almost 50% slower. You need to do everything in the world that you can to act quickly and efficiently.

Rant completed!

al

[DesertCat]

[ QUOTE ]
Once your cards touch the muck pile, THEY ARE COMPLETELY AND FOREVER DEAD AND YOU HAVE NO FURTHER RIGHT TO THE POT REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU HAVE.

...

If you want to raise, say "RAISE" loudly and clearly. Then you may count the chips out at your leisure. If you try to raise (without saying it out loud) and make multiple motions towards your chips, you have made a "string bet" and it won't be allowed to stand. Multiple motions for bets or raises are just not kosher in a live cardroom. Just say it out loud "RAISE" and you'll be fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent advice overall, but I have two nits. First, it's my understanding that if you accidently muck winning cards, you can appeal to the floor to have them play (which they will if they are "easily recoverable" and it's in the "best interests of the game" - Roberts Rules of Poker). If the dealer mucks them, they are dead.

Secondly, I like to call out "two bets" instead of raise. This is because once I missed an UTG raise, called "raise" from LP with a marginal hand, pushed two bets out, and was forced to make it three bets when I didn't want to. Obviously if you never lose track of the action at the table (i.e. aren't a donk like me), you'll never have this problem.

[joshman1204]

[ QUOTE ]
I like to call out "two bets" instead of raise

[/ QUOTE ]

Isnt this a bad idea? What of you have AA and you are raising no matter what but you missed a raise so you say two bets which is a call, wouldnt you now be forced to call in most rooms.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
it's my understanding that if you accidently muck winning cards, you can appeal to the floor to have them play (which they will if they are "easily recoverable" and it's in the "best interests of the game"

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't count on this, EVER. Just protect your hand, like I said. Trust me, as a player, dealer, and floorman, I am not steering you wrong here.

Your second point is fine in an extremely miniscule and virtually irrelevant way. The times you'll ever actually protect yourself by stating a number of bets, rather than a simple "raise" or "reraise" in limit hold'em is not going to have any statistical significance.

al

[cardcounter0]

I like to call out "beer and cheeseburgers" while I make the correct bet in the correct manner.
/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Rosencrantz1]

[ QUOTE ]
I like to call out "beer and cheeseburgers" while I make the correct bet in the correct manner.
/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I know it's my first time, but I was going to say "here come the chips" every time I bet. Bad?

[cardcounter0]

well, since you are stressing about how to leave the table to take a leak, I guess saying something like that every time would be a sure way to mark yourself as a complete wank.
/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Rosencrantz1]

[ QUOTE ]
well, since you are stressing about how to leave the table to take a leak, I guess saying something like that every time would be a sure way to mark yourself as a complete wank.
/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It's my preflop cap with 72o that will mark me as a wank /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[RacersEdge]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't leave cash on the table. Buy chips and leave them instead.

[/ QUOTE ]

This confuses me. Cash plays at the games I'm in, and you can't take the money off the table, just like you can't take the chips off unil you leave. So I would think allowing players to snatch their cash when they leave for a break wouldn't be allowed.

[DesertCat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like to call out "two bets" instead of raise

[/ QUOTE ]

Isnt this a bad idea? What of you have AA and you are raising no matter what but you missed a raise so you say two bets which is a call, wouldnt you now be forced to call in most rooms.

[/ QUOTE ]

You clearly missed the point of my story. I was forced to raise when I didn't want to. When I get burned by it happening the other way, I'll go back to calling "raise". And start to pay attention to my table.

[4_2_it]

I agree with the previous advice given and have one thing to add. Anytime you move your chips in front of your cards that is a bet. For instance, suppose you have ADD (like me) and have to hold a few chips in your hand at all times and decide you want to check. If you tap the table in front of your cards with chips in your hand that is a BET (at least where I play). If you do this as others have and make a stink about it, expect a donk like me to reraise you quickly /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Good luck in AC. The fishing has been good for me at the Trop, but I'm sure the Taj has a well-stocked pond as well. For low limits try to time your play to start about one hour or so after a tournment starts as most of the fish who bust out early will go looking for action since they budgeted their day assuming they will make the final table.

[Rosencrantz1]

[ QUOTE ]
For low limits try to time your play to start about one hour or so after a tournment starts as most of the fish who bust out early will go looking for action since they budgeted their day assuming they will make the final table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brilliant!

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
try to time your play to start about one hour or so after a tournment starts as most of the fish who bust out early will go looking for action since they budgeted their day assuming they will make the final table.

[/ QUOTE ]
Since I suck at tournaments, I like to enter them as a device to ensure I'm getting into the live games at the same time as the worst players in the room.

[Prelude008]

Hi,

Good luck with your trip. I have a few, I didn't see it mentioned, but then I didn't read all posts. Be careful of your tells (i.e. telegraphing ahead of time) if you are going to call, raise or fold.) Also pay attention to how you bet. I try to put my chips in the same way, some people bet differently when they have good/bad hands. Also some people get so excited when they have a good hand that they will try to raise their "opening bet" etc. True they could be faking it. Good luck and let us know how you do.

Also, check on their seat change policy incase you want to change seats. Some places go by who has been at the table the longest while others go by who asked first.

[Rosencrantz1]

All good tips.

If my cards at the casino are as good as the cards I've had for the last hour and 20 min on line (+40BB in 70 min) then I think I'll be fine.

[SossMan]

read Scott Armstrong's article in the first or second 2+2 online magazine.