How weak tight is this???

[Gambler]

2/4 game 9 handed.

Hand 1

I'm in CO with 88

EP limper, folded to me, I raise...button calls, limper calls.

Flop Q42 Rainbow. (7.5 sb)

EP leads out, I think for a while and fold. I couldn't see him leading into me without a queen.

Hand #2

2/4 game 9 handed.

I'm in EP with AA. I raise, UTG+1 calls, SB calls. We see the flop 3 handed.

Flop KJ9 rainbow (7 sb)

Checked to me, I bet, UTG+1 folds, SB calls.

Turn T (rainbow board still) (4.5 BB)

SB now leads out. I fold.

Comments?

[sy_or_bust]

Hand 1 needs a read. This bet usually telegraphs a hand, but functions differently depending the the type of player you face. Absent a read, you probably folded the best hand.

Hand 2 also needs a read. Again, this turn fold typically sucks.

[SeaEagle]

Depending on your reads of the two villians, I don't think either of these folds are weak/tight in a vacuum. If you make these types of folds every time your opponent represents a hand, though, you're folding too much.

On hand one, it's a drawless board and EP is leading into 2 players. I think a fold here is fine.

On hand two, you have a scary board, with an overpair and 4 outs to the nut straight and it's heads up. You have to win 1/4 of the time for a call down to be right. If my opponent were at all aggressive, I'd be calling this down.

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
EP leads out, I think for a while and fold. I couldn't see him leading into me without a queen.


[/ QUOTE ]

Me neither on that board. I think that's fine.

Hand #2 I would probably call down just because I'd expect most 2/4 players to C/R with a Q, although if I had it I'd play it the same as villian.

[Gambler]

Hand #1

Button calls EP's flop bet. Turn is another Q. EP bets and now buton raises. At this point I'm thinking I made a good fold. Button must have flopped big and was slow playing. River is a 6. EP checks, button bets, EP calls. EP turns over 43o and Button turns over 42o. Split pot. Well, now at least I have reads.

[Nikademus]

You simply can't expect an EP to be playing 43o, nor the button to cold call a raise with 42o. Just because they play badly doesn't mean you should have. Still a good fold. But now you know they are capable of very bad plays.

[W. Deranged]

Hand #1: I personally think this is a weak-tight fold. The most punishment I ever took for a post on this board was for a similar flop fold when I first started posting. The general message was: be very wary of adopting "I couldn't see him ever..." thinking. Your opponents will often lead out/raise hands that are less than top pair, and if you give them credit for top pair all of the time without some very strong read you are going to be laying down way too many hands. With 7.5 SB already in the pot, you are looking at getting about 2.5-1 effective odds just to call down with your hand (though note this is not a good way to play the hand), so if you think there's a 29% chance you'll be ahead you need to continue (and if you are going to continue you need to maximize your equity by playing aggressively).

My line on this flop is to raise basically ever time. With a player behind you and a very vulnerable hand that has a high likelihood of being good, a raise is automatice here. If you get three-bet, then you can reconsider. Q42 is really a pretty good flop for 8s in a short-handed pot. There is only one overcard and a Q is usually a more welcome site than an A or a K because it may be slightly less likely to get played.

Hand #2: You are getting 3.25 -1 on a call down here. I think this is a more legitimate situation to fold than the previous one, but do note that you have redraws against any two pair and three outs to broadway if villain has a Q (which are likely to be pure given you have two aces in your hand). Donk bets are often made for odd reasons, though, so be wary of auto-folding here. This pot is not that big and I think your hand is less likely to be good here than in the previous situation, so I'd lean more toward folding here than I would in case #1, but I don't think a call-down will sometimes be in order against an opponent with any known amount of trickiness/general idiocy.

[Nick C]

Hand 1: There are some things EP could be betting besides a queen, such as a pocket pair (that you may or may not have beat) and a wheel draw. Edit: Also, A4 and A2 are hands to consider.

That said, EP is betting into two players, including the PFR.

I think the fold is all right, but if the hand went to showdown, I would certainly make sure to see what got shown down.

Hand 2: The ten probably helped SB, but I would probably call against an unknown.

If he has a queen, you're hoping one of the three remaining queens falls, and your outs situation isn't very good.

Versus a hand like T9, though, you have 12 outs.

If SB bet again on the river and I hadn't improved, what I might do is tell myself I should fold and then go ahead and call anyway.

He might have called with ten-rag on the flop, chasing a gutshot, and then bet it as a bluff on the turn when he caught a pair. And once Small Stakes players start a bluff, they tend to see it through until they're raised, their opponent folds, or they're called down.

I don't think SB will have just a ten all that often, but that's what I might tell myself while I was calling.

[W. Deranged]

Hand #1:

[ QUOTE ]
Absent a read, you probably folded the best hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Many players of varying quality are willing to bet what appear to be widow flops, and for many different reasons (sound aggressive play, lagtasticness, cluelessness, etc...) Against opponents I had any thought were weak/passive I'd be taking shots with many hands on this flop from villain's position.

[damaniac]

That first board (or similar ones such as K53) is a great one to bluff at from his perspective. While I don't usually bet into the pfr in this situation with nothing, I attempt to steal non-raised pots on these flops all the time (as long as there are only a couple other players). Something to keep in mind.