A Hand From Last Night's Game

[TaoTe]

I'll try to remember all the details of the hand as best as I can remember. I was going to post this on the small stakes forum, but I'm still a beginer and feel more comfortable here.

Local card club/bar. Blinds 1/2 limit HE, seven handed. Most of the players I'm familar with, the others aren't involved in the hand.

I'm in the SB with: K /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif Three players fold. CO calls, Button Calls, I complete, BB checks. (four small bets)

We take a flop four way.
Flop: K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif,J /images/graemlins/club.gif,8 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I check, BB checks, CO bets, Button calls.

I'm not going anywhere with TP and a flush draw. The CO is a LAG who will bluff at 85% of the pots when it's checked to him. He plays better at NL then LHE but there was no NL game going and he knew most of the players to be weak. He could be betting with a wide range of hands: the jack, the eight, the king, a flush, straight draw, or complete bluff.

The Button call worries me some as he is one of the strongest players at the table, but being that, he also knows CO would bet with many hands, and my feel is that he doesn't have the king or he would have raised to protect his hand against any draws.

I'm also 90% sure that if either player had ace suited they would have raised from CO or Button, so I know my king high flush will be good if I make it. Instead of raising I elect to call, in hopes that the BB will make an overcall.

I call. BB folds. 7 SBs in pot.

The turn: 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

I bet out. CO raises. Button folds. I'm thrilled to see the Button fold as I figured he would without anything but a strong king. What confuses me is the CO raise. If he has a King, I have no kicker. I can get rid of a few hands easily. No King broadway cards, as he would have raised PRF. While at the table I couldn't narrow his hand down anymore. There's 6.5 BBs in the pot (I think I counted it right) so I'm getting good odds on a call. I can easily raise but I see no +EV from it. If CO is on a bluff, he'll fold. He will probably fold a J and definately an 8 as I've never known the CO to make loose calls when he thinks he's beat and has a weak hand. He'll raise me if he has the king, two pair, or a set. I call.

The river: 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I missed my flush. I have the king and my gut was telling me it was good, but I was sure CO wouldn't call a bet on the river unless he had me beat. I check.

CO goes into the think tank a moment and stares at the pot, obviously counting out how much is in it. Eventually, he bets and I insta-call, knowing raising would be the worst play, folding the second worst and calling probably my best option.

We both turn over our cards.

Any suggestions or comments on the way I played the hand. From what I believe the rest of the table saw I was just a calling station and the Button commented, "Are you just going to call all night?"

I'll post the results after a few replies.

[topspin]

If you didn't have the read on CO, you should bet this flop. Given that you feel CO will bet most flops that are checked to him, a check-raise is okay too, although in this case if Button folds you risk facing BB with two cold.

The point though is that you have huge equity on this flop and what could even quite easily be the best hand which you failed to exploit. You also make the rest of the hand unnecessarily difficult to play on the later streets.

[TaoTe]

The turn was tricky. When CO raised, I thought I may have been beat. The river however was cut and dry. CO player told me after the hand that the turn bet confused him and he thought I was trying to steal or be on a semi-bluff.

If I bet out on the flop the hand would have been completely different. It would have ended up with me being heads up with the Button, the aforementioned strongest player at the table with position on me.

[AASooted]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in the SB with: K /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif Three players fold. CO calls, Button Calls, I complete, BB checks. (four small bets)

We take a flop four way.
Flop: K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif,J /images/graemlins/club.gif,8 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I check, BB checks, CO bets, Button calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you need to bet this flop. You have top pair, and you have a flush draw. I believe your odds to hit the flush by the river are about 2:1. You have three other players in the pot, and the only hands that are ahead of you now are a bigger K, AA (unlikely with no pre-flop raise), two pair or a set. You want to get money in the pot here. What if this is one of the times CO decides not to bluff?

I'm weak on my turn play, and the hand would probably play differently if you bet the flop, so I'm going to sit back to see what more experienced players have to say.

[TaoTe]

Thanks,

I appreciate feedback from everybody.

There was a quick discussion about the play after the hand, but CO isn't the type to analyze hands and the button isn't much for that either.

[SheridanCat]

I haven't looked at the other replies yet, so I'm probably way off-base here.

Preflop is fine.

I think I'd probably checkraise the flop. I want to shake the BB. This also sets me up to get a free card on the turn. Once you've checkraised the flop you can often check the turn if I don't improve and the players behind will check it through fearing another raise. Since you're up against two players it's a little more likely someone will bet, but this play still works.

The turn bet is fine, I think. The weak check/call on the flop and then betting out at a blank on the turn is nice here because, based on your read of the aggressive CO, it's almost certain he'll raise. Not only does this help you by possibly eliminating the button player, it also helps you know where you stand should the button player decide to call or raise. If that happens, you're likely behind and need the flush to come in.

On the river your check makes sense. I'm not sure I understand his bet here. There are two things he could be doing by betting:

<ul type="square"> Betting for value. To me your betting pattern says you have a good but not great hand, and he may think his is better. Since you don't put him on an Ace, that rules out AJ. He could have a King with a better kicker or something like QJ that he thinks is good since the flush didn't come in.

Bluffing. I expect he interpreted your turn bet as a steal attempt and is trying to move you off. However, your check/call on the flop followed by betting out on the turn would indicated to me that you're holding more than a busted flush draw and are willing to call a bet on the river. That would make a bluff incorrect.
[/list]

Regardless your river call is correct, I think. However, I would have been amused to see you checkraise him here - probably not the right play but it would have been fun to try.

Regards,

T

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
If I bet out on the flop the hand would have been completely different. It would have ended up with me being heads up with the Button, the aforementioned strongest player at the table with position on me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have top pair weak kicker, which could easily be the best hand 4-handed, plus a monster draw to the 2nd nut flush. The more bets that go in on this flop, the happier you are. You should take whatever actions are most likely to achieve this.

I should add that you'll get better feedback by posting low-limit strategy hands like this in micro rather than the beginner forum.

[TaoTe]

I don't like the check raise on the river because it leaves me open for a raise from a better hand and I can't see CO paying off with a worse hand as he likes to bet and raise, not call. I may be wrong though because all that I posted were my thoughts that I had during the hand. Post mortem, I think I could have earned an extra bet or two if I had played it perfectly. LOL, I guess that gives away the hand results.

[TaoTe]

I prefaced my post with a reason why I didn't want to post it in the micros. As I get more experience, I'll surely take your advice. A question: at what limits do the micro forums end and small stakes begin?

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
I prefaced my post with a reason why I didn't want to post it in the micros. As I get more experience, I'll surely take your advice. A question: at what limits do the micro forums end and small stakes begin?

[/ QUOTE ]

Micro refers more to the quality of the players rather than the stakes at risk. Online the traditional division is that 1/2 and below go in micro, and 2/4 and up go to small stakes. Live players tend to be significantly worse than online -- every 2/4 game I've played live has typically had worse players than the .5/1 game online at Party. Hence this particular hand would fit in quite well at micro.

The reason I suggested it is that there are many excellent limit posters that frequent the micros, and you'll learn a lot from having them critique your hands and responding to other people's hands. You're also likely to get better advice by posting in the forum specific to the game you're playing rather than the beginner forum, where you'll get replies from people who may not be specialists in the game you're playing.

You're already a giant step ahead of most new people in that forum because you've done a great job of giving your reads and outlining your thinking process so that people can respond critically to your reasoning. Oftentimes the thought behind your actions is much more important than the result of the hand.

Good luck in your poker journey.

[fnord_too]

I haven't read the replies yet but I think you should raise the flop and lead the turn if it does not get reraised. If you are behind you have probably 10 outs on average (that is a bit of a swag since you likely have 12, but there may be redraws against you). At any rate, you raising is +EV against two opponents here with 10 outs, so you should not be afraid to take the lead on this flop and BB folding does not bother you. Personally, I lead this flop almost always, but if you strongly suspect that CO will bet, I like a c/r here.

Leading the turn after check calling the flop is interesting. I really do not like it. You are really not afraid of a free card here (since anyone behind is drawing to between 1 and 5 outs), you definitely have a hand with some showdown value, and you have an aggressive player behind you with the lead. The way you got there, I think I like checking the turn with the intention of raising. There is a good chance you are ahead here, since people with kings in their hand who see the flop tend to raise pre flop. I understand you are worried about the button, but what could he have that he limps preflop with and calls the flop bet on? Probably nothing that beats you. If you check and it checks through, you have an easy bet on the river as long as a non club ace does not come.

On the river, the way you got there, check calling is the way to go.

[TaoTe]

Very well said, friend. Thank you very much. It is appreciated.

Good luck on your journey as well. I'm sure we'll communicate on the boards more in the future as I have no plans on leaving this site for awhile...if ever.

[TaoTe]

Sorry for replying twice but I read your post again and I must say I am stunned. Online play is stronger than live? This contradicts everything I've heard about it. Why is this so and what is your proof?

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry for replying twice but I read your post again and I must say I am stunned. Online play is stronger than live? This contradicts everything I've heard about it. Why is this so and what is your proof?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea where you're hearing things from, but a simple experiment you can perform yourself is to observe a 2/4 table at your local casino vs a 2/4 table at your favorite online site. 5 minutes of watching how many people see the flop at an average table should convince you in short order.

[AKQJ10]

I fully agree: online play at a given limit is clearly much tougher, in general, than B&amp;M play at the same limit. What may be confusing you is that online play offers much lower limits. Therefore, the same bad players who toss away money at Pacific 5c/10c for example might go to Foxwoods and play $2/4 because there's nothing smaller.

As for proof -- you could find a way to randomly select a sample of hands from each, and compare them on metrics like % seeing flop, preflop raise %, etc. But I personally wouldn't waste the time because (1)I know what the conclusion should be and (2)I have no real motivation to prove it to skeptics.

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]
I fully agree: online play at a given limit is clearly much tougher, in general, than B&amp;M play at the same limit. What may be confusing you is that online play offers much lower limits. Therefore, the same bad players who toss away money at Pacific 5c/10c for example might go to Foxwoods and play $2/4 because there's nothing smaller.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Live play is much looser and often more aggressive than corresponding online play. I just got back from Las Vegas, so this is on my mind. I played 4/8 at Binions, Wynn and Harrah's. Those games were much looser and had much worse players than my usual .25/.50 or .50/1.00 online games. I've played the 5/10 and 10/20 games online and they are much tougher than the live equivalents.

Regards,

T

[bholdr]

failing to raise the flop is a mistake- you likely have a huge equity advantage. the raise will keep nuts like the CO from raising te turn, give you a free card (perhaps- position is bad) if you decide you want it, and tie them on till the end. If i raise and get raised on the turn i can confidantly assume two pair and check/call the rest of the way.

i don't know the players, but iat this level, it's a very safe bet thet none of the players are even remotely 'strong' and there is absolutely no point in fearing any of them.