KQo flopping top pair

[Boolean]

Reads: Villain is very loose before the flop, and had bet out top pair with a 4 kicker on the turn before when everyone checked the flop. This was within the second orbit at the table though, so no concrete reads other than pretty loose before the flop.

How do you usually deal with a stop-and-go at this level against loose players? Should I raise for value, or call down as I did?

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (8 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (6.20 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8.20 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.20 BB

[arsixsixwy]

Nobody's replied to this, so I'll take a stab. I'm by no means an expert but I'll give it my best shot.

Preflop: Perfect.

Flop: Perfect.

Turn: I tend to raise here, for value. While the villain may be making some sort of play with a big hand (KJ, for instance), more often, he's just betting some random pair. So, raising serves two purposes: when you're ahead, it's relatively difficult for him to draw out on you -- a T has an open-ended straight draw, but you'll notice the dangerous board when that comes -- so you're betting for value; when you're behind, the hands you're behind to will probably 3-bet -- I'm thinking KJ, K9, K8, QT, and any set. If you get 3-bet, you can more safely fold to a river bet, as you've shown plenty of aggression and he's still betting into you.

River: I might tend to wuss out on the river in this spot, also, fearing the stupid trips possibility. Do you see how raising the turn makes the river easier to play, though? If you just get called after raising the turn, I tend to raise the river as well as he could be betting a busted draw as a bluff. Calling isn't too bad, though, I don't think.

I think the villian had KT, the more I look at it. Betting top pair on the flop, semi-bluffing on the turn, betting a busted draw on the river.

[Boolean]

Thanks for the reply. The more I think about it, the more I should've raised the turn. I'd get more out of the hand when I'm ahead, and I lose the same amount as a call-down when I'm beat. It does make the river play a lot easier, too. The villain showed K5o and MHIG.

[moot]

I think your line is fine.

The thing is... heads up when there's a good chance you might be beat, you really don't lose much EV just by calling down, especially when you have position.

If there were a couple donks sticking around calling, I'd be much more inclined to raise, because that's where a lot of the value comes from. The idiots with complete crap. But this guy's shown some strength and heads up I'd probably play it the same. There's a decent chance you might be beat, but at the same time your hand is too strong and the pots too large to fold.

And of course all this depends on your reads, too.

[Bodhi]

I play it like you did. If he's bluffing then let him continue. Otherwise that board is kind of scary.

[Bodhi]

[ QUOTE ]
and I lose the same amount as a call-down when I'm beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily. If you raise the turn and he calls, and then he bets the river, you're obviously not going to fold. If he 3-bets the turn you could fold though, which is what you were suggesting, right?

[Boolean]

Ah, good point. The continuation donk-bet. Forgot about that line. All in all, I think this is really read-dependant. I think moot made some good points about the value of betting with a lot of callers vs. heads-up. Thanks for all the help, I appreciate it.

[TomBrooks]

Looks good to me. If you raise the turn, you might gain another bet if your ahead or UTG might fold a weaker hand and you might lose a bet you could have gotten on the River. About a toss up.

If you raise this turn and UTG made a straight or 2 pair, you might get reraised and then you should probably fold or it's likely going to cost you 2 more bets to see a showdown with a losing hand. You could have seen the showdown for less if you just called, and it eliminates the small but possible problem of folding the best hand if UTG bluff or semi-bluff reraised you.

It looks unlikely to me that you can get UTG to fold to a raise here unless he has a weak hand you'd like him to stay with. Probably the only thing he'd stay with that you beat is K worse kicker.

The turn card is a scary that could have improved UTG to 2 pair or a straight.

I don't want to fold Top Pair, but UTG seems to have at least Top Pair also. The key words are "at least." The downside potential of losing more bets seems greater than the upside potential of winning more bets.

[Watain]

Im wondering what hands you can put on Villian.

If he is sane he would have raised pre-flop with kk or jj.


Flop &gt; He seems a little scared of you raise. If he had kk, jj, 88 he should have 3-bettet.

Turn &gt; It seems like the flop have helped him, but then again, that would only help a 99, q-t or 7-10.

7-10: should´t be bettet out on the flop
q-10: could be bettet out, with 8 outs. But not that likely.
9-9: hmm, maybe.

But he could also have lots of other cards, since this is very nano-limit.

I think it´s a close decision, since he might have a-k, 99 or a straight that have you beaten. He is just as likely to don´t have these cards but something that you beat.

So, to raise the turn or to not raise the turn. I think it´s pretty much breakeven EV, but pointing a little towards a raise...

[car ramrod]

anyone like raising the river. If he had KJ or K9 his 2 pair just go counterfeited.
Also he may just be donk betting top pair not believing we raised pf with a K.

Not sure if there is much value in it. Would he call our raise with a losing hand enough to get value? Getting 3 bet would be bad, so I'm not sure, just putting it out there for discussion.

[arsixsixwy]

[ QUOTE ]
If he had KJ or K9 his 2 pair just [got] counterfeited.

[/ QUOTE ]

No they didn't.. Kings and jacks still beats kings and eights.

[car ramrod]

oops, nevermind. Doing too many things at once.