When something doesn't "feel" quite right

[Aaron W.]

I ran into this hand today, and I'm not sure how else I can describe the hand. My note on villain is "FPS". He has had all sorts of wacky plays with both his good and his bad hands. Bluff bets/raises, slowplaying big things until the river, limping AA, betting his middle pair (Q4o paired his 4) when an ace fell...

When he bet the flop, I felt there was a decent chance I was ahead. He might have a 3 or some other pocket pair or he might even be trying to pick up the pot. I don't think he has a king because he would have waited until the turn or gone for a check-raise. I chose to raise because I felt I could drive out the rest of the field who might have draws against my 66. Also, if cold-called, I'm almost certainly up against a better hand because the villains behind me weren't loose enough to call two bets on this board with nothing.

When he 3-bet the flop, I was actually more convinced that he had nothing. Why didn't he smooth-call and check-raise the turn if he had a real hand?

Once the rest of the field was gone and I was convinced I was ahead, it became WA/WB.

I'm a bit frustrated because I can't really quantify anything here in a reasonable way. It was one of those rare times where everything was just "feel". The flop 3-bet just "felt" strange. Am I crazy? Should I have just dumped it on the first flop bet?

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (4 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG folds, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

[benkath1]

With your detailed read I would say NH. Against an unknown I would dump it after the 3 bet.

Wouldn't you want to raise preflop 4 handed with a pocket pair?

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
With your detailed read I would say NH. Against an unknown I would dump it after the 3 bet.

Wouldn't you want to raise preflop 4 handed with a pocket pair?

[/ QUOTE ]

66 is a little low for a value preflop raise. I'd raise 99 and probably 88.

I also wasn't playing particularly well postflop against this table. The cards were a bit dry, I had been pushing a couple poorly chosen edges, ran into a couple monsters... So I was trying to slow myself down a little bit and get back into a decent rhythm. That diversion is just to say that I felt like I needed to play with a larger postflop edge by keeping the pot small.

[VBM]

vs this type of opponent, i would never dump this to a flop bet/3-bet.

at the table, i think i'd pretty much group villain into one of 3 possibilites;
1. he has 3x. maybe something like 3A, so he feels like even if he's behind, if he spikes an A he's got a strong 2 pr.
2. he has Kx.
3. he limped a mid-high pair.

1. the only 3 that has you in really bad shape is 33.
2. seems unlikely to me for the reasons you stated.
3. is possible, esp. given your read, but high pairs don't grown on trees.

i think i cap this flop. if he leads or C/R a turn bet, i'm done.

the main reason being, i don't want a 3-(big card) hand getting a chance to to improve over me, and he may believe you'd play a K this aggressively.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
vs this type of opponent, i would never dump this to a flop bet/3-bet.

at the table, i think i'd pretty much group villain into one of 3 possibilites;
1. he has 3x. maybe something like 3A, so he feels like even if he's behind, if he spikes an A he's got a strong 2 pr.
2. he has Kx.
3. he limped a mid-high pair.

1. the only 3 that has you in really bad shape is 33.
2. seems unlikely to me for the reasons you stated.
3. is possible, esp. given your read, but high pairs don't grown on trees.

i think i cap this flop. if he leads or C/R a turn bet, i'm done.

the main reason being, i don't want a 3-(big card) hand getting a chance to to improve over me, and he may believe you'd play a K this aggressively.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I buy that last bit. Is a player this willing to throw bets into the pot really going fold his two pair here?

[VBM]

KK33 isn't that great a hand and a cap followed by a turn bet, he probably should lose some confidence in that hand. UI on the turn and possibly against your (imagined) set of K's, i think its feasible.

the drawback of this line would be you dont' want to force something like 88 into a calldown.

[SCfuji]

call call call has my vote

[Aaron W.]

After thinking about this hand for a while, I was tyring to remember the last time I was in a situation like this. A hand came to mind that I posted a long long time ago...That hand is here (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=161039&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp;o =&amp;fpart=all&amp;vc=1).

Go visit the archives. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2865402&amp;page=0&amp;view=c ollapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1) I've forgotten how much content is hidden back there.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
call call call has my vote

[/ QUOTE ]

Does that include facing the first bet?

[rivered_again]

[ QUOTE ]
My note on villain is "FPS".

[/ QUOTE ]

What does FPS mean?

[SCfuji]

yeah why slow him down =p

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My note on villain is "FPS".

[/ QUOTE ]

What does FPS mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fancy Play Syndrome.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah why slow him down =p

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not to slow him down, but to make sure that the other two players don't slide in cheaply with something like QT to have 6 live outs against me.

[sexypanda]

If this guy isn't a complete maniac, I raise the turn and check the river unimproved. I like this move, because I have a little more fold equity with the turn raise and it costs the same to see a showdown. If I think this guy is capable of bluff 3-betting me on the turn, I'd just call down.

Edit: Removed previos "edit" comment, sb could easily not have raised pf with a king. For some reason I thought it was folded to the sb pf. I should learn how to read.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
If this guy isn't a complete maniac, I raise the turn and check the river unimproved. I like this move, because I have a little more fold equity with the turn raise and it costs the same to see a showdown. If I think this guy is capable of bluff 3-betting me on the turn, I'd just call down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about bluff 3-betting, but he might aggressively value bet his 3. Based on the action here and on previous hands, I don't think he would fold. It's a definitely a good line against more sane players.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
If this guy isn't a complete maniac, I raise the turn and check the river unimproved. I like this move, because I have a little more fold equity with the turn raise and it costs the same to see a showdown. If I think this guy is capable of bluff 3-betting me on the turn, I'd just call down.


[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line as well.

[MrWookie47]

[ QUOTE ]
call call call has my vote

[/ QUOTE ]

I really like the raise on the flop in this hand to fold 6 outers behind you. HU, call call call looks better.

[MrWookie47]

Panda, that's a really good line, too. Hmmm. The raise the turn for a free showdown line I don't use much at all, but I definitely see its merit here.

[sexypanda]

Yea, I picked up this line from reading one of Negreanu's quizes on his site. Most of them are NL, but each quiz is pretty interesting. Here's the one that talks about that line:

Quiz (http://fullcontactpoker.com/poker-forums/viewtopic.php?t=12591)

Answer (http://fullcontactpoker.com/poker-forums/viewtopic.php?t=13797)

[MrWookie47]

Yeah, I'm familiar with the line. I think it was some of krishan's posts over in HUSH that introduced me to it.

I still am not sure it's strictly better than raising the flop, however. HU, your line is clearly correct. But with 2 people behind us on the flop, I feel like I want to raise and blast them out, or see if the cold call (read: have a K). Do you have any more input as to why you'd raise the turn instead even with the players acting behind you?

[sexypanda]

I wasn't advocating the turn raise instead of the flop raise. I think the flop was played fine, and since his read on the SB was that he could be making this move with a variety of holdings, and also since it's heads up, I think raising the turn and checking the river costs the same and gives you a little more fold equity.

[MrWookie47]

Ahhhhhhh.

Hmmm.

Wow. That is a play that definitely takes some stones. I think I like it, though. Thanks for your input.

[sexypanda]

Yea, I'm a LAG

[McGahee]

I like the flop action.
I would strongly consider raising the turn against this guy.
In fact, I'd raise the turn vs. a lot of 1/2 villians. The only difference being I would not fold to a 3-bet here.

Aaron - I don't know how long you've played these 1/2 5-max games, but you're not going to see trips get fastplayed that often. Much less against this guy, folding is never even a consideration.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the flop action.
I would strongly consider raising the turn against this guy.
In fact, I'd raise the turn vs. a lot of 1/2 villians. The only difference being I would not fold to a 3-bet here.

[/ QUOTE ]

What would read villain to be on that would 3-bet here and lose to 66? A3 is barely possible in my mind, which leaves other pocket pairs. And I would be too afraid of running into something like 99 in this spot.

[ QUOTE ]
Aaron - I don't know how long you've played these 1/2 5-max games, but you're not going to see trips get fastplayed that often. Much less against this guy, folding is never even a consideration.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I've played my way up to about 1000 hands. I'm guessing this is basically nothing for short-handed because the hands fly through so fast and the long run is really the LLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNGG GGGGGGGG run. However, being on the happy end of the variance stick and beating the game at 10+ BB/100 is a fun illusion that I'm going to enjoy until I hit that first downswing.

[MrWookie47]

I think you can safely fold to a 3bet against all but the most bluff happy villains if you raise the turn. Calling the flop 3bet and then raising the turn looks an awful lot like a K to most players. You might scare some better hands into folding, and any hand that doesn't beat trip K's is going to have an extremely hard time 3betting you here.

This raise is a bluff stopper. If he still comes over the top, you have to think he has the goods.

[McGahee]

OK if he's not a total maniac, yur probably right calling down is best because I don't want to either call or fold to a 3-bet. I'm not thrilled about letting him draw at a 6-outer but it appears to be the least ugly option.

This line that Panda mentioned though is a terrific play against more typical villians that I use regularly and feel is vastly underused on this forum. It may be slightly overused over in SS.

[sexypanda]

Taking my line, I'd definitely fold to a turn 3-bet. If someone's willing to 3-bet the flop and turn with a worse holding that 66, good for him. I'll take his money later. But if he's a reasonable player, I think the turn raise has a chance of getting him to fold a pocket pair higher than yours.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you can safely fold to a 3bet against all but the most bluff happy villains if you raise the turn. Calling the flop 3bet and then raising the turn looks an awful lot like a K to most players. You might scare some better hands into folding, and any hand that doesn't beat trip K's is going to have an extremely hard time 3betting you here.

This raise is a bluff stopper. If he still comes over the top, you have to think he has the goods.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do I really want to shut down his bluffing? The FPS read suggests that he might be bluffing too much already, so that I should encourage him to continue his bluffing by playing it weak.

[SCfuji]

hey aw. sorry for not even recognizing the other players in the pot. i like the raise if thats how you would play a K since thats what you are representing to the other players. if you *usually pop the turn then id be more inclined to do that no matter what card/overcard comes down on the turn.

[cmwck]

You can sometimes raise this PF.
Flop raise looks fine.
Once UTG folds, I think you're more like ahead/way behind. If you beat him, he could still have 6 outs to beat you. If he does have a king (unlikely given your description), you have 2 outs. EDIT: i guess if we assume he's not a total maniac then we can eliminate two high cards from his holdings. In that case it's WA/WB like you said.

Still, I don't think this changes our play. We still want him to keep bluffing or overplaying his 3, so raising the turn to stop a bluff is the wrong idea.

[sccrneo]

Would capping the flop be a correct play?

[cmwck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If this guy isn't a complete maniac, I raise the turn and check the river unimproved. I like this move, because I have a little more fold equity with the turn raise and it costs the same to see a showdown. If I think this guy is capable of bluff 3-betting me on the turn, I'd just call down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about bluff 3-betting, but he might aggressively value bet his 3. Based on the action here and on previous hands, I don't think he would fold. It's a definitely a good line against more sane players.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the villain in this hand were a sane player, I'm not sure we have much fold equity. For example, if we raise the turn against the sane player, he'll fold a 3, 3-bet a king, and call down with a pocket pair higher than yours. Then again, a sane player probably wouldn't bet/raise the flop and lead the turn with just a 3, so the question would be whether we should fold the turn, not whether to raise it.

[SlantNGo]

There are way too many players who would play this way with Ace-high. Against a LAG who's noted to bet, bet, bet with Ace, King, and even Queen high type hands, I would play the same. Against a tricky player like the one you described, I think you played it fine as well, although I would consider dumping if an Ace showed up.

It's not just feel; it's reasonable.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a bit frustrated because I can't really quantify anything here in a reasonable way. It was one of those rare times where everything was just "feel". The flop 3-bet just "felt" strange. Am I crazy? Should I have just dumped it on the first flop bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't you want to raise preflop 4 handed with a pocket pair?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not in the big blind.

[GTSamIAm]

WA/WB. He very well could have a king. Or not. So turn call does not protect your hand if you are ahead. Raise or fold on turn then. Raise against laggers. Fold against more legitimate betting opponents. Don't worry about FPS.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
WA/WB. He very well could have a king. Or not. So turn call does not protect your hand if you are ahead. Raise or fold on turn then. Raise against laggers. Fold against more legitimate betting opponents. Don't worry about FPS.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are other things to do besides trying to protect hands...

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If this guy isn't a complete maniac, I raise the turn and check the river unimproved. I like this move, because I have a little more fold equity with the turn raise and it costs the same to see a showdown. If I think this guy is capable of bluff 3-betting me on the turn, I'd just call down.


[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

It can be good. I don't think I like it here.

Raising for a free showdown can be good when,

1. You might get a better hand to fold. Generally this means someone has a pair better than yours.
2. You might be ahead. This is really important since if you aren't ahead putting extra bets in sucks.
3. You don't have a lot of draws. There are times where a free showdown raise is good also with a draw, but by default it's better without. This is because you don't want to pay 3-bets with a decent draw. (Decent is 5 outs or more)
4. Your opponent can't be capable of a bluff 3-bet. If he is, bet-fold lines are too risky.
5. Your opponent might be on a draw. Charge him.

In this particular hand, I don't like a turn raise for a free showdown. Here are the reasons.

1. We might get him to fold a better hand but it's very unlikely. The reason is he 3-bet the flop on a paired board. This means a really large % of the time he is going to showdown with either a pp or a king.

2. This is the crux of the issue. I don't think you are ahead often enough to put bets in here. Most of the time this line is used in a spot where you have a decent chance at being ahead and the chance of a 3-bet is pretty low. Because the 3-bet doesn't come often you can fold to it pretty easily. This also combines with point 4.

3. We have a 2-outer. No shame in folding two outs if we are behind.

4. Villian bet-3bet an uncoordinated paired flop. This isn't the standard line with trips but we can't rule out a king. Hero had a read that Villian was pretty fancy and could get out of line with a 3. This is exactly the kind of opponent that could bluff-3bet the turn. (I include 3-betting with a 3 in this category). Given the action I expect to get 3-bet a LOT here.

5. There are no draws. Make raising for a free showdown less favorable.

One other non-favorable factor is if he is on a bluff, he will often bluff the river. So when you raise for a free showdown, all you are really doing is winning the same 2 bets. (Unless he folds his bluff on the turn, then you win 1 less)

I think Hero played this hand to perfection.

Krishan

[sexypanda]

Great analysis. Thanks.

[MrWookie47]

Thanks for the input. I'm still trying to get the hang of when this play is a good option.

[Aaron W.]

That's a nice analysis. Thanks.

[VBM]

[ QUOTE ]
What would read villain to be on that would 3-bet here and lose to 66? A3 is barely possible in my mind, which leaves other pocket pairs. And I would be too afraid of running into something like 99 in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

is this what happened?

-- results-oriented olliefish.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What would read villain to be on that would 3-bet here and lose to 66? A3 is barely possible in my mind, which leaves other pocket pairs. And I would be too afraid of running into something like 99 in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

is this what happened?

-- results-oriented olliefish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your answer is here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2874800&amp;page=0&amp;view=c ollapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1).

[monix]

Grunch.

I like the flop raise, but I fold when it comes back to me.

[mockingbird]

I think raising the flop is a good strategy but after he 3-bet the flop I would have folded to a turn bet. Or maybe better yet, folded to the 3-bet flop bet.

After you raised the flop he would have to put you on a K, a 3, or a PP and to 3-bet he would have to be pretty sure he had you beat. I would fold to his 3-bet.