Does anyone else find party poker skins 10-20 difficult?

[CrazyIvan24]

10-20 full ring
15,319 hands -$2,231 (-0.73 BB/100)

VP$IP 10.35
VP$ISB 16.18

Its seems like i cannot win

I wonder how i can improve my game?
I often 3 or 4 table at once....play tight...etc


Do anyone feel the same about it? with regards to full ring 10-20s? party skins

[lil feller]

You are playing WAAYYYY to tight.

lf

[Nigel]

There is a regular in the 30, you may know who I ma talking about that has a VPIP of like 7%.

Nigel

To the OP - yes, too tight.

[CrazyIvan24]

What should my VP$P be?

I play 77s to AA, AK, AQ, and position cards, along with suited connectors, but it seems i always get rivered, etc. I do win with big overpairs long run (nearly 79% w/ KK and AA)

Any tips?


What should a BB/100 per table? multitable?

Thanks

Ivan

[34TheTruth34]

[ QUOTE ]
VP$IP 10.35


[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Its seems like i cannot win


[/ QUOTE ]

have you tried playing hands other than aces and kings???

[tpir90036]

1) Play fewer tables and get comfortable.
2) I am considered super-tight by 2+2 standards and even I play 17% of my hands.
3) The post about getting rivered all the time and such tells me you don't understand how this game goes.

Good luck,
tpir

[CrazyIvan24]

I guess I'll have to move down and cut my tablings...

POKER TRACKER INFO - After 15,319 hands in 10-20
VP$IP 10.335
VP$ISB 16.18
Folded SB to Steal 89.01
Folded BB to Steal 77.97
Att. To Steal Blinds 14.90
Won $ WSF% 36.18
Amount -$2,231.28
BB/100 -0.73
Went to SD% 28.32
Won $ at SD 59.90
PF Raise % 5.50

Can a winning multi-table 10-20 compare stats, and offer advice? Thanks

Ivan

[tpir90036]

Go to the Microlimit forum and read part three of this sticky post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1659321), the part labeled "stats".

In general it looks like you are way too tight. If you are seeing that few flops you will need to win like 70% of your showdowns to get to where you want to be... and that just ain't possible.

[lil feller]

The VPIP suggestions here vary between 15 and 20. I'm right in the middle at around 18%.

As far as getting rivered, be happy about, it probably means the opposition is playing poorly. Remember that 15k is not a large sample, and its possible for the opposition to be hitting more then their fare share of rivers over that small a sample.

lf

[CrazyIvan24]

Thanks this post and link was very useful.

[TimM]

Some say I'm also too tight but really what's the difference between a 17.5 VPIP and a 14.5? Something like one less hand every three orbits?

June 2005:

32,004 Hands of 10-20, 4 tabling
VP$IP 14.45
VP$ISB 25.69
Folded SB to Steal 86.15
Folded BB to Steal 68.42
Att. To Steal Blinds 23.49
Won $ WSF% 35.91
BB/100 0.49
Went to SD% 32.56
Won $ at SD 56.96
PF Raise % 8.41
Aggression factors:
Flop: 2.45
Turn: 2.05
River: 1.45

I started July with a 100BB downswing in 5 days, and moved down to 5/10 full (and after 4 days I am now ahead /images/graemlins/grin.gif). I was running bad and maybe not playing so great for most of the month - I ended June with the same amount I had after the first three days. Also, I figured that whatever I could do at 10/20 under best conditions, I could probably make the same amount dollar wise at 5/10 with half the variance. I still saw a lot of bad play by my opponents, but in general it is a much tighter game post-flop than the 5/10.

[stigmata]

I'm gonna chime in and say that your possibly too tight postflop. Your WSD is on the low end and your W$SD is at the high end. This could be stylistic, but you might be folding some winners. Worth thinking about anyhow.

Also, you do not raise enough preflop, and because it's a tight game you should be stealing more liberally to add a touch to your BB/100.

I also imagine your postflop aggression may be too low. You need to loosen up and get more aggressive, particulaly when in position I am thinking.

It's hard changing lots of things at once, especially when being "stats orientated". Your game may suffer. Just read lots of the hand posts here, and try to make adjustments on a hand-by-hand basis, rather than changing your game globally. Also, perhaps (re-)read the preflop chapter in HEPFAP or whatever.

Good luck.

[Klepton]

[ QUOTE ]
There is a regular in the 30, you may know who I ma talking about that has a VPIP of like 7%.

Nigel

To the OP - yes, too tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

i bet into this guy every flop, it's hilarious

[Tzak]

Try to play 3-6,and find 1 good 15-30 game.

[CrazyIvan24]

TimM


Thanks for your insight, Do you play the 5-10 game now strictly? I'll do that from now on.
How many BB would and hands accumulate would one need before moving up in limits?

Ivan

[CrazyIvan24]

Tzak

What is your opinion on the 15-30s at Party?

[MaxPower]

Its fine to play too tight in games where people are going to pay you off all the time. But the good players are going to see how tight you are and they will not give you any action. They will only give you action when you are beat.

TimM, I think you are a little tighter than most, but not overly tight. Nothing really bad can happen if you loosen up a little and raise a little more, in fact something very good might happen.

CrazyIvan, you are what is known as a Rock. You are going to have to change your ways if you want to beat the 10/20 unless you find a super soft game somewhere.

[TheCodeDog]

Doesn't it seem pretty wrong to be only raising pre-flop with half of your hands when you only play 10% of them?

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
TimM


Thanks for your insight, Do you play the 5-10 game now strictly? I'll do that from now on.
How many BB would and hands accumulate would one need before moving up in limits?

Ivan

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, all 5/10 for now. I try to accumulate 500BB and at least a month of play (for me 32000 hands) before moving up. I may make the bankroll requirement even higher as I move up.

[Tzak]

I liked the 3-6 and 15-30.From what little I played 5-10,10-20,didn't care much and thought it was on the tight side.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
VP$IP 10.35


[/ QUOTE ]

OMFG. At 10/20, your opponents are likely observant. You RARELY enter a pot. When you do, they know exactly where you are and will fold.

[shant]

I play twice as many hands as you in this game. Loosen up.

[Stuck]

You don't defend your blinds nearly enough either. If I was in a stealing position with you in the blinds I'd pretty much be raising any two cards.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
TimM


Thanks for your insight, Do you play the 5-10 game now strictly? I'll do that from now on.
How many BB would and hands accumulate would one need before moving up in limits?

Ivan

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, all 5/10 for now. I try to accumulate 500BB and at least a month of play (for me 32000 hands) before moving up. I may make the bankroll requirement even higher as I move up.

[/ QUOTE ]

i can tell you that you are being too strict.

read the Old Man from Montana post on the subject...when you are playing well and running well, take shots at a bigger limit (set a loss if need be). when you are running bad and perhaps playing bad, step it down a notch.

taking shots and stepping back is an extremely important thing to do (if you want to greatly improve.)

-Barron

PS- but on the whole, the 500bb as a bankroll to play a game 4-8 tables every day is very good and once you get to 40/80 and up its probably better to have 600-800bbs...

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
i can tell you that you are being too strict.

read the Old Man from Montana post on the subject...when you are playing well and running well, take shots at a bigger limit (set a loss if need be). when you are running bad and perhaps playing bad, step it down a notch.

taking shots and stepping back is an extremely important thing to do (if you want to greatly improve.)

[/ QUOTE ]

It's early yet for my poker career, and my bankroll is my only savings. I had some credit card debt going in and I am paying it off aggressively, and it will be gone within a month or two. Then I can put some money in the bank and feel more comfortable about taking shots. I knew going in that the first six months would be touchy, and the strictness is there to keep me in the game.

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]
Went to SD% 28.32

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why you are losing. This is attrociously low for having a VPIP of 10. It should probably be over 40, but at minimum over 35. You are almost certainly making a lot of bad folds. Post some hands where you've folded and thought it was close. Likely spots for this mistake are heads up on the river, on the flop with middle or bottom pair, and facing a possible semibluff bet or raise on the turn with a medium strength hand.
Also, you should steal the blinds more and defend your own blinds much more. This should bring up your VPIP and PFR, which, as everyone has pointed out, are too low.
But the big problem is your went to sd %; as someone mentioned there is a regular in the 30 who definetly beats the game with a VPIP between 7 and 8, but when he sees the flop he's seeing a lot more showdowns than you.
Finally, be careful not to fall into the trap of aiming for certain statistics and making bad plays to get good numbers. If you play well, you will have the right numbers, but having the right numbers does not mean you are playing well. I could easily get the stereotype 18/10 VPIP/PFR of a tight aggressive player without playing a single hand correctly preflop.

[jdock99]

I normally try to take off the skins first, as they are harder to digest and give me indigestion.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
77s

[/ QUOTE ]

Rigged.

[CrazyIvan24]

Thanks for your feedback Ike.
I will fine-tune my multi tabling game of 5-10 then

Ivan

[CrazyIvan24]

shant

What are your stats? More importantly, in multitabling do people attempt to achieve a 1BB per 100 hands as well/

[mab_nyc69]

that is too low of vpip...what about your preflop raise? are you playing full tables or shorthanded? you need to focus on table selection and build your buddy list

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
More importantly, in multitabling do people attempt to achieve a 1BB per 100 hands as well/

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. A good player can likely be at 2bb/100 over several 100K hands while 4-tabling this game.

[Tzak]

Are the aggressive players pushing you off hands that would have won?

[CrazyIvan24]

My preflop raise is at 5.51 PF Raise %

and its full ring tables I play

Yeh I didn't know about the buddy list until now

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
The VPIP suggestions here vary between 15 and 20. I'm right in the middle at around 18%.


[/ QUOTE ]


The key is how well you play post-flop.

Even just following Ed Miller's advice in SSH hand-for-hand in position-for-position your number will be higher than where you are...

I do far better myself when I'm over 20 than under 20.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[mack848]

[ QUOTE ]

VP$IP 10.335
VP$ISB 16.18
Att. To Steal Blinds 14.90
Won $ WSF% 36.18
Went to SD% 28.32
Won $ at SD 59.90
PF Raise % 5.50


[/ QUOTE ]

Given the above stats, I am the other person who is surprised to see him only losing 0.7 BB/100?

[J. Sawyer]

heh your VPIP could probably afford to be almost twice that /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I figure out the reason you lost is because you are playing too passive after flop (even pre-flop)You didn't show your aggressive facter which I think should be very low.It is very hard for a mouse to win.I am a aggressive player myself,I always try to find a table full of mouses.I steal a lot of pots from them. I don't even need to see my cards to win a hand.my winning rate is over 10bb/100(under a big sample).most of them I won are from mouses.