Would you consider this to be an insult?

[Daliman]

I made a thread in the WPT forum about a black female player, saying she should be referred to as H-DOG for Human Delay Of Game. It was deleted by a moderator for being "insulting", who said that he always deletes insulting threads(....). Either way, I didn't post it as an insult, I posted it as a funny-descriptive way to identify a player who we will likely be seeing a LOT of come ESPN WSOP season. The fact that she is a female and black had NOTHING to do with my post; if it were Burt Rice instead, I;d have posted the same thing. Looking for opinions on the matter, and since this is News, VIEWS, and GOSSIP, I'd say this is the proper forum for this, but I guess time will tell. If this is insulting, methinks E-Dog may need some explaining to then.

anywho, on to the poll;

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

Of course it's insulting, but I can see no race or gender basis.

What I find appalling are the many negative characterizations of her that ARE based in race, gender or attractiveness. If you are a man, you've gotta be X-22 before people start busting on your looks. If you are a woman and fall shy of Shannon Elizabeth, you are busted on mercilessly.

[MCS]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are a man, you've gotta be X-22 before people start busting on your looks. If you are a woman and fall shy of Shannon Elizabeth, you are busted on mercilessly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Word. I agree.

Imagine if X-22 were a woman.

[TStoneMBD]

i dont know why she is a human delay of game and i dont really care. to be honest, i dont think polls like this need to be created and i dont think that topics need to be formed about your thoughts on a poker player, albeit humorous.

we have more members than ever before and i think as an attempt to unclutter the forums us veteran posters have to stop posting random crap if we expect the same from others.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont know why she is a human delay of game and i dont really care. to be honest, i dont think polls like this need to be created and i dont think that topics need to be formed about your thoughts on a poker player, albeit humorous.

we have more members than ever before and i think as an attempt to unclutter the forums us veteran posters have to stop posting random crap if we expect the same from others.

[/ QUOTE ]

Topics don't need to be posted on on my thoughts on a poker player? I'm sorry, I thought this was a DISCUSSION forum, and the News, VIEWS and GOSSIP forum. EVERYTHING is random crap, including any dissertation on how to play AKo to a minraise out of position in a 10-20 NL game.

P.S. If you watch any of the WSOP later, you will find out why she is a Human Delay Of Game. A conservative estimate put the # of times the clock has been put on her the tournament at 80.

[USELESSTHREAD]

***STAMP***

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
What I find appalling are the many negative characterizations of her that ARE based in race, gender or attractiveness. If you are a man, you've gotta be X-22 before people start busting on your looks. If you are a woman and fall shy of Shannon Elizabeth, you are busted on mercilessly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm missing something here. Why is this appalling?

[meow_meow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What I find appalling are the many negative characterizations of her that ARE based in race, gender or attractiveness. If you are a man, you've gotta be X-22 before people start busting on your looks. If you are a woman and fall shy of Shannon Elizabeth, you are busted on mercilessly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm missing something here. Why is this appalling?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't know why it is appalling that someone is being negatively characterized according to race, gender or attractiveness, you are either incredibly dense, or have been spending too much time in OOT.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you are a man, you've gotta be X-22 before people start busting on your looks. If you are a woman and fall shy of Shannon Elizabeth, you are busted on mercilessly.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't know why it is appalling that someone is being negatively characterized according to race, gender or attractiveness, you are either incredibly dense, or have been spending too much time in OOT.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was really about looks & gender, not race. But yea. I definitely prefer to be around hot chicks. Why would I want to be around ugly ones? If you say that a woman's looks are completely unimportant to you, then you're just a liar, whether it's to yourself or just everyone else.

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]

This was really about looks & gender, not race. But yea. I definitely prefer to be around hot chicks. Why would I want to be around ugly ones? If you say that a woman's looks are completely unimportant to you, then you're just a liar, whether it's to yourself or just everyone else.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the above, but it stops short of the main issue. Your attitude about anyone, particularly soneone of the opposite sex, is always going to be influenced by their physical appearance.

The point is that anyone with any maturity and class does not make derogatory remarks about another's looks, particularly in a public forum where that person might see them. It is hurtful, it is pointless, and it is high-school crap.

BTW, it's true the other way too. News flash for all you horny 17 year olds out there: no one cares who you would or would not "hit".

[TStoneMBD]

i dont mean to offend you and my remarks arent directed specifically at you in particular. this is an open forum and all content is allowed within the judgment of the moderators hands. you are allowed to disagree with me, but i still stand my by opinion that topics offering little content, or no content should not be posted. it is a waste of forum space. if you have a slightly funny comment like the one you came up with, it seems that it should be posted in someone elses thread.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
The point is that anyone with any maturity and class does not make derogatory remarks about another's looks, particularly in a public forum where that person might see them. It is hurtful, it is pointless, and it is high-school crap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spoken like someone with an ugly women looking over his shoulder. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[wayabvpar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you are a man, you've gotta be X-22 before people start busting on your looks. If you are a woman and fall shy of Shannon Elizabeth, you are busted on mercilessly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Word. I agree.

Imagine if X-22 were a woman.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just threw up a little in my mouth.

That's ridiculous. That guy was really over-reacting.

[Iplayragstoo]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont think polls like this need to be created and i dont think that topics need to be formed about your thoughts on a poker player, albeit humorous.



[/ QUOTE ]

STFU you nit....your in a news, views, and gossip forum. This forum is for exactly that...please go put your soapbox behind a 7-11 or something, and preach to the rats. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Iplayragstoo]

TStone says [ QUOTE ]
i dont mean to offend you and my remarks arent directed specifically at you in particular. this is an open forum and all content is allowed within the judgment of the moderators hands. you are allowed to disagree with me, but i still stand my by opinion that topics offering little content, or no content should not be posted. it is a waste of forum space. if you have a slightly funny comment like the one you came up with, it seems that it should be posted in someone elses thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Daliman clearly says [ QUOTE ]
I made a thread in the WPT forum

[/ QUOTE ]

It was his thread to begin with...

[trying2learn]

i think the moderators are getting a little carried away in more instances than just this. IMHO.

[B Dids]

WPT would be better if there were more threads about how players player and not what they looked like or what they said. The less useless threads like yours, the better.

[Willy]

Yea. So what. There are many insults here.

[Pov]

When Dynasty started moderating in the WPT forum, he asked what changes we'd most like to see. The most frequently referenced and widely agreed upon suggestion was that posts that made fun of professional players had driven away many pros and discouraged them from posting on 2+2. That's what you were doing. That's why your post was deleted IMO.

[Myrtle]

[ QUOTE ]
When Dynasty started moderating in the WPT forum, he asked what changes we'd most like to see. The most frequently referenced and widely agreed upon suggestion was that posts that made fun of professional players had driven away many pros and discouraged them from posting on 2+2. That's what you were doing. That's why your post was deleted IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see it that way at all.......

When Daliman made the post and coined the term H-DOG, didn't he explain what it was an acronym for? I don't see that as out of bounds at all...

Calling a player a Human Rain Delay goes to the issue of style of play. It is entirely unlike some of the mean-spirited comments that I've seen here that transcend decency and get personal.

FWIW, as far as Dynasty goes? I think he is getting way out of line lately. I don't know the man, have never met him, but in watching his actions as a moderator as of late, I think he should take 3 giant steps back and consider some of the inconsistency's of his actions.........

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
WPT would be better if there were more threads about how players player and not what they looked like or what they said. The less useless threads like yours, the better.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, in other words, since mine was a specific commentary on how a player plays, you are in full agreement with me. Good to know.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When Dynasty started moderating in the WPT forum, he asked what changes we'd most like to see. The most frequently referenced and widely agreed upon suggestion was that posts that made fun of professional players had driven away many pros and discouraged them from posting on 2+2. That's what you were doing. That's why your post was deleted IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see it that way at all.......

When Daliman made the post and coined the term H-DOG, didn't he explain what it was an acronym for? I don't see that as out of bounds at all...

Calling a player a Human Rain Delay goes to the issue of style of play. It is entirely unlike some of the mean-spirited comments that I've seen here that transcend decency and get personal.

FWIW, as far as Dynasty goes? I think he is getting way out of line lately. I don't know the man, have never met him, but in watching his actions as a moderator as of late, I think he should take 3 giant steps back and consider some of the inconsistency's of his actions.........

[/ QUOTE ]

There was additional commentary in the original thread/post also where I ruminated over what can be done in the future when someone employs these kinds of tactics in a tournament, but alas, it got deleted. Many are now finding out what i knew EARLY on; Inmate running the asylum.

[MMMMMM]

Anyone who had the clock called on them 80 TIMES (according to Dali), deserves to be insulted at least 70 times.

Repeated stalling is very bad for poker. If she was really as guilty of stalling as I've gathered from reading the forum, then she not only deserved to be insulted, but to be BOOED by the crowd.

A long decision on occasion is one thing, but having the clock called on her 3 times in one hand is another. And is it true that she actually took 15 MINUTES TO MAKE ONE DECISION? And had the clock called on her countless times?

If all that's essentially true, then "H-DOG" is a very mild nickname for her--or for any player who frequently and deliberately makes the game unpleasant, boring and excruciatingly slow for everyone else.

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont know why she is a human delay of game and i dont really care. to be honest, i dont think polls like this need to be created and i dont think that topics need to be formed about your thoughts on a poker player, albeit humorous.

we have more members than ever before and i think as an attempt to unclutter the forums us veteran posters have to stop posting random crap if we expect the same from others.

[/ QUOTE ]

this post is a joke, right?

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who had the clock called on them 80 TIMES (according to Dali), deserves to be insulted at least 70 times.

Repeated stalling is very bad for poker. If she was really as guilty of stalling as I've gathered from reading the forum, then she not only deserved to be insulted, but to be BOOED by the crowd.

A long decision on occasion is one thing, but having the clock called on her 3 times in one hand is another. And is it true that she actually took 15 MINUTES TO MAKE ONE DECISION? And had the clock called on her countless times?

If all that's essentially true, then "H-DOG" is a very mild nickname for her--or for any player who frequently and deliberately makes the game unpleasant, boring and excruciatingly slow for everyone else.

[/ QUOTE ]


I was only really guessing at 80 times, but I got the 3 times in one hand from posted accounts online, and even once where she did it while considering her play versus A STANDARD PREFLOP RAISE. 80 times may be an exaggeration, but from what I hear, it could EASILY be a big undershot too.

Also, in the 15 minute decision hand, it was said that she got up from her seat and WENT OVER TO A FRIEND TO ASK THEM WHAT SHE SHOULD DO! She had to be told by the other player in the hand that she couldn't do that. Weak sauce.

[JihadOnTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are a woman and fall shy of Shannon Elizabeth, you are busted on mercilessly.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is because poker players, on the whole, are attractive and take care of their bodies to please the ladies. CYA at the gym...

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i dont think polls like this need to be created and i dont think that topics need to be formed about your thoughts on a poker player, albeit humorous.



[/ QUOTE ]

STFU you nit....your in a news, views, and gossip forum. This forum is for exactly that...please go put your soapbox behind a 7-11 or something, and preach to the rats. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

ROFL


FWIW, I have a friend who was in her table the 1st day and she has the clock called on her many, many times.

[Smoothcall]

I don't see anything wrong with your post.

[Vincent Lepore]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who had the clock called on them 80 TIMES (according to Dali), deserves to be insulted at least 70 times.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. you want to change the rules..then fine. But if the rules allow a player to take his time then there is nothing wrong with using the rules to your advantage. I would agree that the rule should be something like one clock per tournament before a penalty or one per round or something like that. But don't fault somone for playing within the rules.

P.S. Just so you know - I love you MMMMMMM

Vince

[Smoothcall]

I think she may have abused it a bit or alot, but they shouldn't allow you that much time if they don't want someone to use it. She is operating within the rules.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who had the clock called on them 80 TIMES (according to Dali), deserves to be insulted at least 70 times.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. you want to change the rules..then fine. But if the rules allow a player to take his time then there is nothing wrong with using the rules to your advantage. I would agree that the rule should be something like one clock per tournament before a penalty or one per round or something like that. But don't fault somone for playing within the rules.

P.S. Just so you know - I love you MMMMMMM

Vince

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, insulting someone isnlt against any rules either. Neither would screaming at the top of your lungs directly into her face while she "thought". You know better than to say just because something isnlt specifically against the rules, that doesn't make it ok. Steriods weren;t illegal in MLB until a few years ago, was that ok?

[Smoothcall]

I don't think its right for you to sream at he at the top of your lungs. I don't blame you for not liking it. But call a clock and leave it up to the tourney director to decide how long she has. Its like in online tournies many people stall in online tournies. And the ones that don't stall are at a disadvantage to the ones that do. They allow you time ansd everybody else stalls. But there will always be one or 2 guys at the table screaming at the staller and calling them all kinds of names. I always see those guys as totally out of line. Who are they to yell at the person and curse at them. If you don't like stalling in tournies take it up with a rules committee to eliminating the possibility. But as long as they allow it the short stacks that don't stall are at a disatvantage to the other tables short stacks that are stalling. So do they speed up so they don't get called all kinds of explitives by someone they don't know and be at a disadvantage or stall and take the heat? Stalling should be eliminated. But until its not if your not stalling when short your not getting the edge otyher short stacks are.

I'm not sure about this but didn't we have a tourney discussion like amonth ago where you said you would use any advantage to your benefit to make the most money you can. i think we were discussing calling the f word rule on a player to have her out and blinded down. Why is this any different? She is playing for BIG money and is stalling to move up spots which could be life changing to her. What more important to her in her life the money for her family? or some guy screaming at her to speed up?

They should limit the time drastically so that noone can take that long. But until they do its the rules fault that this can occur.

[MMMMMM]

Anyone who had the clock called on them 80 TIMES (according to Dali), deserves to be insulted at least 70 times.
-----------------------------------------------------------


Wrong. you want to change the rules..then fine. But if the rules allow a player to take his time then there is nothing wrong with using the rules to your advantage. I would agree that the rule should be something like one clock per tournament before a penalty or one per round or something like that. But don't fault somone for playing within the rules.
-------------------------------------------------------------

But I do fault people for things like that, when done to great excess. And I think they should be roundly leaned on, shamed, insulted and verbally hammered until they start showing everyone else at the table a modicum of courtesy. Why? Because if they do it repeatedly and consistently they're obviously doing it deliberately.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
I think she may have abused it a bit or alot, but they shouldn't allow you that much time if they don't want someone to use it. She is operating within the rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK--try to imagine how your $15-$30 game would go if there was a player doing this on every hand, every decision? And remember, you can't quit or ask for a table change.

Would you think it's OK because it's within the rules? And what if it happened all week long?

I don't know how you would react, Smoothcall...but somehow I don't think this is something Vince would put up with for very long;-)

[Jackal]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think its right for you to sream at he at the top of your lungs. I don't blame you for not liking it. But call a clock and leave it up to the tourney director to decide how long she has. Its like in online tournies many people stall in online tournies. And the ones that don't stall are at a disadvantage to the ones that do. They allow you time ansd everybody else stalls. But there will always be one or 2 guys at the table screaming at the staller and calling them all kinds of names. I always see those guys as totally out of line. Who are they to yell at the person and curse at them. If you don't like stalling in tournies take it up with a rules committee to eliminating the possibility. But as long as they allow it the short stacks that don't stall are at a disatvantage to the other tables short stacks that are stalling. So do they speed up so they don't get called all kinds of explitives by someone they don't know and be at a disadvantage or stall and take the heat? Stalling should be eliminated. But until its not if your not stalling when short your not getting the edge otyher short stacks are.

I'm not sure about this but didn't we have a tourney discussion like amonth ago where you said you would use any advantage to your benefit to make the most money you can. i think we were discussing calling the f word rule on a player to have her out and blinded down. Why is this any different? She is playing for BIG money and is stalling to move up spots which could be life changing to her. What more important to her in her life the money for her family? or some guy screaming at her to speed up?

They should limit the time drastically so that noone can take that long. But until they do its the rules fault that this can occur.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just silly logic. If you are going to operate on the premise "if it's within the rules, it's ok to do" then there is absolutely NO difference between taking a long time to make a decision and berrating someone for doing so. You think insulting someone is out of line, i think taking a long time to make a decision intentionally is probably moreso. The bottom line is, both are within the rules but neither are "Ok".

If you want to pretend like it's "ok" for someone to deliberately make long decisions frequently then don't be surprised when people insult her. If she has a problem with it, as you said, she can ask that the rules be changed.

[MicroBob]

In the various situations in question I would blame the tourney-directors more for not doing anything about it then for the player doing the actual stalling.

[Smoothcall]

I would call the floor if someone did that in my 15-30 game. It would not be within the rules the floorperson would tell her she needs to act now or leave the casino or whatever. There is a difference in that, and in a tourney when allowed very much time to act. Did u completely skip by my online example where everybody stalls?

I don't see the relevance of telling me what vince would do or not do. I hope your not implying we are the same person?

[Smoothcall]

exactly!

[Smoothcall]

If its within the rules then how is it silly logic. She is allowed to do it whether you like it or not. If people don't like it write to tournament directors to get the time reduced. And your example is ridiculously silly. I am allowed to take time. You cannot berate me. You can until i call a floor guy and if you don't stop your butt is gone from the tourney. Mine is not. I wonder why that is? Oh i know. One is within the rules and the other is inappropriate behavior that will get you thrown out of the tournament. Come and try chastizing me in a b&m cardroom while i'm making my decision and see how fast your out the door. While your on your way home i'll still be taking my alloted time.

[Smoothcall]

And using the 15-30 example is a very poor example to compare. If someone took that long in a 15-30 game there is nothing to gain by stalling. In a tournament there is. That is the whole point. If short stacks didn't stall in a tourney they would be at a disadvantage to the short stacks that were stalling.

And i have played with people in 15-30 games where people have taken too much time. The floorman asks them to pick up the pace or they will have to leave. Eventually they will be asked to leave if it continues. Notice you can't ask the person in the tournament to leave because she is not doing anything she is not allowed to. I would bother me much in a live game because there is nothing to gain for the person. In the tourney i would see why they were doing it, nd understand the strategy. I might not like that thye are doing because it takes too long or messes up my window of stealing enough blinds near the bubble (notice that my strategy here is to steal blinds assuming we were near the bubble, and notice she has a strategy to hang on for as long as she can, why are they any different)? But again as long as the tourney directors allow you to do it its there fault not hers.

[Jackal]

[ QUOTE ]
If its within the rules then how is it silly logic. She is allowed to do it whether you like it or not. If people don't like it write to tournament directors to get the time reduced. And your example is ridiculously silly. I am allowed to take time. You cannot berate me. You can until i call a floor guy and if you don't stop your butt is gone from the tourney. Mine is not. I wonder why that is? Oh i know. One is within the rules and the other is inappropriate behavior that will get you thrown out of the tournament. Come and try chastizing me in a b&m cardroom while i'm making my decision and see how fast your out the door. While your on your way home i'll still be taking my alloted time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently you've never played in a real tournament before then...which actually wouldn't surprise me. People make comments all the time and never get thrown out. Have you heard of a guy named...oh, i don't know...Phil Helmuth perhaps? If your made up rules to justify a silly argument actually applied he'd be thrown out of every tournament. Not to mention, he (and others like him) aren't usually making legit comments about people taking too long, it's mostly just anger at getting bad beat. So stop being so delusional as to think people get thrown out for trash talking. It is NOT against the rules just as taking too much time isn't. My point is, just because both are currently within the guidelines, doesn't make it "ok" in terms of common decency and courtesy, somthing i guess you know nothing about.

[Myrtle]

....since there is so much talk about the 'rule', I'm not sure what it was during the Main Event?

How much time had to pass before you could call for a clock on a player?

Once a clock was called in, how much time did the player have to act?

FWIW, this player was not unintelligent. If you saw her interview, she was articulate and educated. She is an attorney. Although I was not at the table, it seems hard to believe (given the excessive amount of times that she took a very long time to act) that she was unaware of what she was doing.

That being the case, the other players at the table could have done a number of things to speed it up.

I haven't heard much about what actions THEY took to remedy the situation.

Does anyone have any more direct information about this?

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
I would call the floor if someone did that in my 15-30 game. It would not be within the rules the floorperson would tell her she needs to act now or leave the casino or whatever. There is a difference in that, and in a tourney when allowed very much time to act.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but doing it EVERY HAND EVERY DECISION is completely ABUSING the rules. And by the way, it is abusing the players too.

[ QUOTE ]
Did u completely skip by my online example where everybody stalls?

[/ QUOTE ]

Missed it somehow.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see the relevance of telling me what vince would do or not do. I hope your not implying we are the same person?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've met Vince but I've never met you (to my knowledge, anyway).

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
I might not like that thye are doing because it takes too long or messes up my window of stealing enough blinds near the bubble (notice that my strategy here is to steal blinds assuming we were near the bubble, and notice she has a strategy to hang on for as long as she can, why are they any different)? But again as long as the tourney directors allow you to do it its there fault not hers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see your point if the player is on the bubble. But that wasn't the case with her (from what I've gathered). It sounds more like she did it for day after day?

Also, not everything that is "within the rules" is necessarily "OK". And if EVERYBODY did it , it would ruin the tournament.

There's also something to be said for showing one's fellow players at the table a little common courtesy and decency. And something to be said against those who don't.

[Dan Mezick]

She's female, and you are assigning a name that says she is a kind of dog. This is not complimentary. She plays poker, so you are also suggesting she is an 'underdog' ... or a kind of bad player.

I'd say that qualifies as at least disrespectful and likely a real insult.

This event also increases the likelyhood you will find yourself at one or more tables soon, where someone exactly like her outplays you masterfully, and gets a whole lot of your chips.


http://www.fas.org/news/reference/probert/PA.HTM
Dog
Dog is slang for a promiscuous woman.

http://www.betlaspalmas.com/sportsbook_glossary_1_.html
Slang term for underdog.

[B Dids]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
WPT would be better if there were more threads about how players player and not what they looked like or what they said. The less useless threads like yours, the better.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, in other words, since mine was a specific commentary on how a player plays, you are in full agreement with me. Good to know.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Slow" is not a style of play worth discussing. You're not dumb enough to believe this answer. Playing coy is not your strong suit.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd say that qualifies as at least disrespectful and likely a real insult.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's far more insulting is a single player making the whole table wait as long as possible on EVERY DECISION, ALWAYS.

If the descriptions of her behavior as put forth on these forums is accurate, I'd say "H-DOG" is not nearly insulting enough.

If you and others were at her tables I'll bet you would agree.

It's bad enough when a dealer can't get out, say, 30 hands per hour. But hey, WHY NOT PLAY 5 HANDS PER HOUR? It wouldn't be the dealer's fault, then, anyway. And you could play an entire round in JUST UNDER TWO HOURS!

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
She's female, and you are assigning a name that says she is a kind of dog. This is not complimentary. She plays poker, so you are also suggesting she is an 'underdog' ... or a kind of bad player.

I'd say that qualifies as at least disrespectful and likely a real insult.

This event also increases the likelyhood you will find yourself at one or more tables soon, where someone exactly like her outplays you masterfully, and gets a whole lot of your chips.


http://www.fas.org/news/reference/probert/PA.HTM
Dog
Dog is slang for a promiscuous woman.

http://www.betlaspalmas.com/sportsbook_glossary_1_.html
Slang term for underdog.

[/ QUOTE ]

#1 Like I said, I guess E-Dog and Crime dog hate their nicknames too, and when Randy Jackson calls girls dawg, its also an insult? Perception is reality, and to you, obviosuly, a woman can't be referred to as a man would, therefore they are to be treated differently. Sounds sexist to me.

#2 The underdog thing is just silly.

#3 I have NO idea WTF you are talking about when you say "This event also increases the likelyhood you will find yourself at one or more tables soon where someone exactly like her outplays you masterfully, and gets a whole lot of your chips." How exactly would this post increase the likelyhood of that?
#4 As far as being outplayed masterfully, by "someone exactly like her", uh, no. Not happening. And not relevant.

[Smoothcall]

The point i am trying to make is there wouldn't be arule to abuse if they fixed the rule. Online MTT everybody stalls thats short and near the money. If they don't they are at a disadvantage to the ones that do. If they eliminated stalling and taking exceessive amounts fo time nobody could abuse the rule. And the good guys like me wouldn't be forced to abuse it to stay on a even keel with the ones that do abuse it. In her case at the main event i doubt many others were doing this wich makes her look worse and she probably shouldn't have done it(as far as being polite) but certainly is wiothin the rules to do so. She might have gained a few followers that dislike her. But i bet she made more money as a result(at least theoretically) by her stalling play. Eliminate the rule. Don't fault the ones that use the rules to there advantage.(i wouldn't have done it because noone else was doing it and wouldn't want to look like a jerk. but obviosly she didnt care whether she did and probably made her money).

You didn't answer my question of whether you are implying we are the same person? Saying you met him and never met me doesn't answer that question. And saying you don't know what smoothcall would do but i know vince wouldn't tolerate it implies you think we are the same person imo. No reason to share what vince would do otherwise. If i'm haviong a discussion with you about what you would do would it make sense to say yeah but i know your friend jobob would agree with me.(completely irrelevant) unless you are implying we are the same person.

[etizzle]

you are a moron, dawg.

[Smoothcall]

Well if she was doing day after day its excessive for sure. But is just stalling for the money a little earlier lol. I wouldn't do it out of respect for the other players early in the tourney. But again its up to the tourney directors to fix the rule.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
....since there is so much talk about the 'rule', I'm not sure what it was during the Main Event?

How much time had to pass before you could call for a clock on a player?

Once a clock was called in, how much time did the player have to act?

FWIW, this player was not unintelligent. If you saw her interview, she was articulate and educated. She is an attorney. Although I was not at the table, it seems hard to believe (given the excessive amount of times that she took a very long time to act) that she was unaware of what she was doing.

That being the case, the other players at the table could have done a number of things to speed it up.

I haven't heard much about what actions THEY took to remedy the situation.

Does anyone have any more direct information about this?

[/ QUOTE ]

- It was during the ME.

- A clock can be called on a player at any time, but it rarely is unless a player has taken 2 minutes or more
already, and still rarely then,( so i hear).

- One the Clock officially starts, the player gets 1 minute and then a 10 second countdown.

- I know she is very intelligent. This does not give her a free pass. As a matter of fact, it goes against her in my book, since she was so obviously aware of what she was doing..

- There is little to nothing that can be done to speed up the play at the table by other players, save for calling the clock on her every time it was her turn. It seems that rules will need to be changed in the furture to prevent people from blatantly exploiting them like this.

[Smoothcall]

Daniel N calls his buddy eric lindgren E-DOG. is he disrespecting him by calling him a dog? just a knickname and has nothing to do with the person to being an actual dop or bad player.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think its right for you to sream at he at the top of your lungs. I don't blame you for not liking it. But call a clock and leave it up to the tourney director to decide how long she has. Its like in online tournies many people stall in online tournies. And the ones that don't stall are at a disadvantage to the ones that do. They allow you time ansd everybody else stalls. But there will always be one or 2 guys at the table screaming at the staller and calling them all kinds of names. I always see those guys as totally out of line. Who are they to yell at the person and curse at them. If you don't like stalling in tournies take it up with a rules committee to eliminating the possibility. But as long as they allow it the short stacks that don't stall are at a disatvantage to the other tables short stacks that are stalling. So do they speed up so they don't get called all kinds of explitives by someone they don't know and be at a disadvantage or stall and take the heat? Stalling should be eliminated. But until its not if your not stalling when short your not getting the edge otyher short stacks are.

I'm not sure about this but didn't we have a tourney discussion like amonth ago where you said you would use any advantage to your benefit to make the most money you can. i think we were discussing calling the f word rule on a player to have her out and blinded down. Why is this any different? She is playing for BIG money and is stalling to move up spots which could be life changing to her. What more important to her in her life the money for her family? or some guy screaming at her to speed up?

They should limit the time drastically so that noone can take that long. But until they do its the rules fault that this can occur.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, a discussion came up where i was on the other side of the discussion regarding Simon Trumper, but that was for one single instance that had little to no effect on other players. Her continual stalling brought her table's hands per hour to a crawl, and thus was costing them all EV, and possibly herself too. The situation have a resemblance, but arent really that similar.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
WPT would be better if there were more threads about how players player and not what they looked like or what they said. The less useless threads like yours, the better.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, in other words, since mine was a specific commentary on how a player plays, you are in full agreement with me. Good to know.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Slow" is not a style of play worth discussing. You're not dumb enough to believe this answer. Playing coy is not your strong suit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, considering how many people HAVE discussed it, and the fact that a rule will likely be at a minimum reviewed thoroughly and likely changed, you are pretty obviously wrong here. Just look at the discussion of it in this thread alone, with only referenced it slightly.

[Smoothcall]

No iwasn't referring to the trumper one. It was the one where some woman that said the f-word and some guy on the table called her on it so she would have to sit out and get blinded down. People said the guy was a low class person to call her on the penalty. You said you would call it. And that you are playing for money and would use any advantage within the rules to give you the most ege possible(something to this effect). If so i don't see why she wasn't doing the same thing. You both will look bad using the rules but are within the rules. Thats why it surprises me you are against her here. After defending the other position as you did. I think maybe becasue she is costing you money if your at the table instead of you making money in your example. And she isn't necessaril;y costing you money. While she is stalling people are geting eliminated and that is positive ev.

[MMMMMM]

I agree the rule should be changed. That in my mind does not give her a pass for horribly abusing it.

There's a rule allowing a player to request seeing a hand that makes showdown. It's pretty lousy if someone ALWAYS asks to see everyone's hand, isn't it? Well, her delay-of-game rules abuse was much worse and detrimental to everyone else than someone just asking to see cards each and every hand.

No, I definitely don't think you and Vince are the same person. But apparently you both do play the 15-30 at Bellagio. And I just CAN'T imagine Vince putting up with this kind of behavior for, say, 8 hours on end. I mention it because I'll bet you too would have a hard time imagining Vince taking this kind of blatant rules abuse from another player for hours and days on end, which abuse effectively ruins the game for everyone else.

And hey, what's wrong with 7 hands per hour anyway?

[Smoothcall]

Yeah i would leave that game if it happened in 15-30. But tourneies are different imo.

Anyway i enjoyed discussing this with you and you made some good points.

I'm exiting this post now before dynasty accuses me of being a troll because i reply to people that reply to me. Nice talking with you.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
Well if she was doing day after day its excessive for sure. But is just stalling for the money a little earlier lol. I wouldn't do it out of respect for the other players early in the tourney. But again its up to the tourney directors to fix the rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

A little stalling is one thing.

I wasn't there, so I can't say for sure it was for days, and admittedly I only have an impression from reading the forums as to what occurred. And that impression is that it was consistent and repeated abuse for...well, for ages, I guess.

[MMMMMM]

Nice talking with you too, Smoothcall.

[Vincent Lepore]

[ QUOTE ]
Apparently you've never played in a real tournament before then...which actually wouldn't surprise me

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it that people like you with weak positions must revert to insults. Stick to the issue or I will ask that you be suspended.

Vince

[Vincent Lepore]

[ QUOTE ]
Because if they do it repeatedly and consistently they're obviously doing it deliberately.

[/ QUOTE ]

And? Tournaments are time controlled events. Strategy and tactics are time based. They have to be. When planning your tournament strategy you must take time and its effect and use into accoutnt. you must use time to your advantage. I don't understand why this fact is not obvious.

vince

[Jackal]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Apparently you've never played in a real tournament before then...which actually wouldn't surprise me

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it that people like you with weak positions must revert to insults. Stick to the issue or I will ask that you be suspended.

Vince

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL...pot...kettle....black. At least i make AN argument and don't just resort to 3rd grade "i'm going to tell on you" strategies that you seem to like to employ. In any case, forgive me if i find it hard to take someone who compares a forum moderator to a nazi seriously. /images/graemlins/wink.gif Trust me, you will be suspended LONG before anybody else here. (aside from smoothcall, of course)

[Smoothcall]

Yeah smoothcall is #1 ranked on ban list but still gets insulted by the likes of you when not provoked by an insult from me. I will not repsond to you anymore. As i don't to get accused of getting into a flamewar because someone insults me for no reaosn and i try to defend myslef. have a nice life.

[Jackal]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah smoothcall is #1 ranked on ban list but still gets insulted by the likes of you when not provoked by an insult from me. I will not repsond to you anymore. As i don't to get accused of getting into a flamewar because someone insults me for no reaosn and i try to defend myslef. have a nice life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhh...so this is the infamous over-the-top, melodramatic, hyper-defensive, totally over-exaggerated smoothcall reaction i've heard about. I get it now, anybody who disagrees with your opinion is somehow insulting you and therefore it must be a flamewar....check. Interesting that you seem to do that with anyone who actually puts forth an argument for which you have no rebuttal...i'm sure it's just coincedence. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[MMMMMM]

Because if they do it repeatedly and consistently they're obviously doing it deliberately.

-----------------------------------------------------------

And? Tournaments are time controlled events. Strategy and tactics are time based. They have to be. When planning your tournament strategy you must take time and its effect and use into accoutnt. you must use time to your advantage. I don't understand why this fact is not obvious.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Yes, Vince. But stalling decision after decision, hand after hand, hour after hour, for more than a day???

Look at it this way: there are certain rules which are OK to use, or even abuse slightly. But if every one took maximum personal advantage of those rules it would COMPLETELY ruin the game.

I mean, every single player could stall every single decision until the clock is called, couldn't they? But what kind of game or tournament would that be? Two hands per hour, maybe?

So everyone has a degree of responsibility to not do things that if everyone did, the entire system would break down.

Sure, use time a little if you think you should. But don't make it the very centerpiece of your table strategy or table presence--which I know you wouldn't, but which it sounds like she did.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
No iwasn't referring to the trumper one. It was the one where some woman that said the f-word and some guy on the table called her on it so she would have to sit out and get blinded down. People said the guy was a low class person to call her on the penalty. You said you would call it. And that you are playing for money and would use any advantage within the rules to give you the most ege possible(something to this effect). If so i don't see why she wasn't doing the same thing. You both will look bad using the rules but are within the rules. Thats why it surprises me you are against her here. After defending the other position as you did. I think maybe becasue she is costing you money if your at the table instead of you making money in your example. And she isn't necessaril;y costing you money. While she is stalling people are geting eliminated and that is positive ev.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, yes you are correct about the instance, and that is also a special circumstance. It is a pretty well know tourney fact that if you are a better player at the table, the more hands you polay per hour, the better it is for you. This was an instance of someone exploiting the rules, whereas the other was a one-time proper usage of a (asinine) rule. I am softening a bit on the f word rule stance I took before though. This is a game played by adults with adults around, fvuck ESPN influence. Until they are actually kicking into the player pool, they shouldn;t have little to no influence, yet they essentially run the show.

[Smoothcall]

I said i wouldn't respond you made some very big lies here so felt the need to one more time. Your saying you didn't insult me you said "courtesy and decency something that i know nothing about?" Now please show me how this wasn't an insult. And i didn't say this was a flamewar. i said it would look like one to dynasty and he would use it as an excuse to try to ban me.

I am turning a new leaf and letting the haters spew there garbage and ignore it.

[Jackal]

Of course you would respond, you can't help yourself. In any case, if you are unable to comprehend why continually and deliberately taking a long time to make decisions at a table is, at the very least, inconsiderate and rude i can only infer that you are the type of person who does not find these elements important. This is not an insult, this is a logical inference made from your very own statements. Hope that helps. (The fact that it is currently "within the rules" doesn't make it any less rude or inconsiderate)

Oh and having gone through your previous posts, it is clear that your definition of "a hater" is nothing more than someone who disagrees with your opinion. For the record, i have never had any interaction with you other than this thread and only know about you by your reputation. It just so happens that in this case, the reputation was well deserved.

[tdarko]

wow, i actually read this entire thread and it's f'ing ridiculous. who the f*ck cares? human rain delay has been a joke used forever and dog or dawg or whatever slang people use today is accepted through entertainment, media etc. and it may not me right in your eyes but if you had any sense at all and have read at least one of daliman's posts you would understand that he is far from an ass or a racist.

untwist your panties people.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]


So everyone has a degree of responsibility to not do things that if everyone did, the entire system would break down.

[/ QUOTE ]



Sorry guys - but I'm mostly agreeing with smoothcall on this issue (even though I wasn't there I think I know enough about it).

The players shouldn't have to rely on each other. The players are trying to BEAT each other.
I don't think she is gaining any advantage by doing it on the first day...but what if all she cares about is just bring the whole table to a disadvantage (as well as putting everyone on super-monkey-tilt to try to eliminate her just to get rid of her....hey, she had to get all those chips somehow).

Anyway - why is it incumbent on the players?
The tourney-directors and rules-makers HAVE to do something about this.
Hell, I bet there is NOTHING that says they can't make an adjustment about this mid-tourney if someone is playing outside the 'spirit of the rules.

They can 'make adjustments as they see fit'.
They can say 'it's obvious that you are stalling on each and every decision and this is not allowed. you are allowed to take time for certain decisions...but not on each and every play. if we deem that you are continuing to abuse this rule you will get a 10-minute penalty'

something like that.
they could at least warn her for crying-out loud.
they could do SOMETHING from discouraging her to do it besides calling the clock on her every 3 minutes.


She was doing a REALLY crappy thing by doing this over and over again (even on day 1). But THEY were the ones who were guilty of letting her continually get away with it.


Adjust the clock to 30 seconds in her case.
Tell her that she can request more time only once more per hour with additional more time if she's faced with a big bet.
Do SOMETHING reasonable to counter-act this instead of just blindly abiding by rules which are clearly not working.

I don't think they need to prevent themselves from making adjustments, even MID-tournament, to ensure that everyone is playing within the spirit of the rules.


Basically - she's an idiot. But there were almost 6k players in this tourney....why should ALL of them be expected to be sharp, polite and play with etiquette.
this is poker for crying-out loud and some people are just plain freaking dumb and rude.
Expecting the players themselves to all behave when you have 6000 of them is ridiculous.

People are there to enforce rules....so start enforcing them already. Or make them so that the game keeps moving.


As far as my understanding of the situation goes I think the WSOP really dropped the ball on this one.
Just as they dropped the ball on the heads-up situation where the one guy had to take a full 10 minute penalty (which is obviously a MUCH more costly penalty heads-up then it is 10-handed at the beginning).

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
Hell, I bet there is NOTHING that says they can't make an adjustment about this mid-tourney if someone is playing outside the 'spirit of the rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I have encountered a habitual staller I have made an announcement that all players are required to conduct themselves as ladies adn gentlemen at all times and that excessive stalling is not accpetable behavior and violators are subject to a 20 minute penalty.

[MicroBob]

exactly.

this would NOT have been out of the bounds of what the WSOP directors could have done.


they can warn her once or twice...and then after the 10th time of her going WAY over the line they could say, "Well....you can finish this hand and take your time (although the clock is running). but after that it's a 20 minute penalty because you have already been warned about continual stalling already and you still insist on conducting yourself inappropriately."


Tourney directors aren't powerless to the freaking players afterall.
The tourney directors HAVE the power as long as they are smart enough to figure out what common-sense dictates they should do.

[MMMMMM]

Microbob,

Yes, the TD's might have made a special rule just to deal with her;-) In hindsight, they probably should have.

Try for a moment considering her behavior as being part of a modified prisoner's dilemma question.

Granted, you can do EVERYTHING you possibly can to increase your own advantage at the expense of everyone else, let's see some suggestions:

1) Stall every hand, every decision

2) Always ask to see mucked cards in the showdown

3) Wear some superstrong-smelling perfume or cologne that bothers everybody but you

4) Talk loudly and incessantly whenever you are out of a hand and your opponents are trying to make critical decisions

5) Be a "personal-space hog" at the table, spreading out as mush as possible in an effort to make your neighbors uncomfortable

6) Cackle loudly whenever someone takes a really horrible beat but still has chips left

7) Eat garlic and anchovies, and never brush your teeth during the whole event

Now, those things aren't "against the rules". But are we all adults here or are we little spoiled brats? Should we do those things for our own advantage, or is it better for EVERYONE if we and others don't do such things (or at least, don't do such things much)?

And yeah, I do think someone who does a LOT of that stuff routinely deserves to be insulted, browbeaten, snubbed, shunned, and lampooned to the fullest extent of the law;-)

So, I think calling her "H-DOG" was very, very mild, considering her repeated and egregious offenses.