Pokerstars view on datamining/huds

[ckessel]

Found this on the PE forum. Kind of fascinating the divergent viewpoint between PokerStars and the Party skins.

No other content, just thought the zoo might be interested as the statements from pokerstars are pretty unambigous.

[ QUOTE ]

Hello,

PokerTracker does not use any information not available to any
observer of the game, nor does it use any means to automate play or
assist in cheating (such as sharing hole cards with others).

Please note also that while some of these programs use dealer chat to
get their information, others "scrape the screen" - getting their
information from the actual graphics displayed to the players.
Therefore, it's impossible to defeat such programs. It would be
pointless for us to prohibit their use, since we'd have no way of
knowing that they was being used.

Therefore, PokerTracker and others like it are permitted for use
on PokerStars. Specifically prohibited are programs that share hole
cards, or automate the play of the game so that it can run
unattended. One such program is detected by our servers, and
PokerStars will refuse to run if that particular "cheating tool" is in
operation.

PokerEdge (and services like it), from what I understand just share hand
histories from the Internet and pool them together in one source as a
shared collective of data. This is also fine, as the hand histories that
people are willing to share with others can be made public knowledge if
they wish - we are certainly not going to stifle the flow of free
information!

Let us know if you have any further concerns or questions.

Regards,

Kyle
PokerStars Support Team


[/ QUOTE ]

[Kirg]

Pokerstars rocks.

[mantra21]

I hope Party is reading this.

[Greg J]

If I'm not mistaken, that looks like customer service. Wow.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope Party is reading this.

[/ QUOTE ]
Party can't read.

[jba]

i /images/graemlins/heart.gif Kyle

[mantra21]

[ QUOTE ]
Party can't read.

[/ QUOTE ]

Judging by the quality of their support emails I'm sure you're not far off.

[MisterKing]

Good post man, and glad to see some level-headed thinking from Stars. They are exactly right in their differentiation of illicit information (hole cards) from freely available information (hand histories, whether local or pooled).

[LowDown22]

Hopefully all the TAGs with PE join you on Stars. Enjoy your time there. I'll play there for bonuses, but otherwise I'll stick with Party.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
we'd have no way of knowing that they was being used.


[/ QUOTE ]

Good english. Thug /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ckessel]

[ QUOTE ]
Hopefully all the TAGs with PE join you on Stars. Enjoy your time there. I'll play there for bonuses, but otherwise I'll stick with Party.

[/ QUOTE ]

PE doesn't support stars. Don't know about other tools though.

[iluzion]

[ QUOTE ]
Found this on the PE forum. Kind of fascinating the divergent viewpoint between PokerStars and the Party skins.

No other content, just thought the zoo might be interested as the statements from pokerstars are pretty unambigous.

[ QUOTE ]

Hello,

PokerTracker does not use any information not available to any
observer of the game, nor does it use any means to automate play or
assist in cheating (such as sharing hole cards with others).

Please note also that while some of these programs use dealer chat to
get their information, others "scrape the screen" - getting their
information from the actual graphics displayed to the players.
Therefore, it's impossible to defeat such programs. It would be
pointless for us to prohibit their use, since we'd have no way of
knowing that they was being used.

Therefore, PokerTracker and others like it are permitted for use
on PokerStars. Specifically prohibited are programs that share hole
cards, or automate the play of the game so that it can run
unattended. One such program is detected by our servers, and
PokerStars will refuse to run if that particular "cheating tool" is in
operation.

PokerEdge (and services like it), from what I understand just share hand
histories from the Internet and pool them together in one source as a
shared collective of data. This is also fine, as the hand histories that
people are willing to share with others can be made public knowledge if
they wish - we are certainly not going to stifle the flow of free
information!

Let us know if you have any further concerns or questions.

Regards,

Kyle
PokerStars Support Team


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

PokerStars is by far (outside of huge base of cashgame player) my favorite site. I've actually been playing there now, and plan to until Party clears this up. If they ban PT, I plan to continue to play a good chunk of my hands at this site.

[SackUp]

why couldn't this be from Party?!?!?!

/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[iluzion]

[ QUOTE ]
why couldn't this be from Party?!?!?!

/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Party's customer service is nonexistant (to be nice, and obey the swear filter).

[TemetNosce]

I wouldn't get too excited just yet. Here's an e-mail from a different Stars support person with a different take on this that was recently posted in this forum:

Hello,

I've looked at this site's offering, and I agree with you that the data
he's selling is mostly worthless and shouldn't be feared. He's simply
walking the list of Sit and Go events to find out who won. The results
often have nothing to do with skill (though longer term they will) -- he's
just making very general assumptions based upon a player's finishes,
without regards to the cards.

Not to be a fearmonger, but we're far more concerned with the likes of
http://www.pokeredge.com or http://members.cox.net/starspy, both of which
track far more comprehensive statistics hand by hand.

In any case, we're well aware of the fears of players regarding
datamining. A certain amount of profiling will simply have to be a part
of online poker (such as offered by PokerTracker.com in concert with
GameTime+, or via pokeroffice.com). Profiling of players that *you* have
played against personally is one thing, and we're unlikely to prohibit
that. (It sounds like we're on the same page on that issue). Mass
datamining and aggregating of data is something else entirely, and we are
always looking ahead and formulating plans on how to best deal with such
programs should they migrate to PokerStars.

Thanks for your feedback and for giving us a heads up on this guy. We'll
be ready for him.

Best Regards,

Jeff
PokerStars Support Supervisor

(Link: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=inet&Number=2848265&Fo rum=)

[RyGreen18]

a little bird tells me that pokeredge is gettin ready to move to pokerstars....

[ckessel]

Even that response is 20x clearer than anything I've seen from Party! It's also sounds like they have a more diligent process for deciding what is and isn't over the line.

[Kirg]

It'd be nice if Lee Jones would chime in with exactly which of the two stances Stars is taking towards PE-type software and Starspy since he frequents these boards.

Mr. Jones, if you're out there, please? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[iluzion]

[ QUOTE ]
Even that response is 20x clearer than anything I've seen from Party! It's also sounds like they have a more diligent process for deciding what is and isn't over the line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it doesn't contradict the first statement, either. Both statements say "We have no problem with PokerTracker and HUD's." The second is just a little more specific, saying they DO have somewhat of a concernt with PE like apps, which you should all be able to agree makes perfect sense (wether you like it or not). A Lee Jones statement as one of you asked for would be good, but from the quality of these two support answers, he will be giving you the same answer, and thats a good thing.

[fix8ed]

[ QUOTE ]
It'd be nice if Lee Jones would chime in with exactly which of the two stances Stars is taking towards PE-type software and Starspy since he frequents these boards.

Mr. Jones, if you're out there, please? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I can't speak for Lee Jones, but I've contacted PokerStars regarding StarSpy and am waiting for their decision. I'll post that information as I get it.

[mackthefork]

That sounds fine to me, all people want is the knowledge to operate within the rules.

Mack

[iluzion]

[ QUOTE ]
That sounds fine to me, all people want is the knowledge to operate within the rules.

Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

[ckessel]

[ QUOTE ]
That sounds fine to me, all people want is the knowledge to operate within the rules.
Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely. I'm in favor of PE, but beyond that I just want to know what the exact rules are. I can disagree with a rule and still honor it, but I do have to know what the rule is.

I get the distinct feeling that if Pokerstars made a decision, I wouldn't be left wondering what it was tht prompted them to send me a warning. They'd say it explicitly.

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That sounds fine to me, all people want is the knowledge to operate within the rules.
Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely. I'm in favor of PE, but beyond that I just want to know what the exact rules are. I can disagree with a rule and still honor it, but I do have to know what the rule is.

I get the distinct feeling that if Pokerstars made a decision, I wouldn't be left wondering what it was tht prompted them to send me a warning. They'd say it explicitly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed 100%. Clarity is the name of the game. Until Party makes its stance clear, whatever that stance is, I'm not playing another hand there.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Clarity is the name of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]



If our view on third-party software is to change in the future then you will be INTIMATED before the future happens so that you will know of those changes that will be different from any past policies.
We reserve the right to look at past policies and make adjustments to those regarding such third-party programs that may give an unfair advantage to those using the products against those who do not use the products and are expecting a fair game.
Again, if our policy on the usage of such 3rd-party products changes then you will be intimated about such changes and until then we kindly request that you refrain from using the programs that we don't want you to use in order to safely be within our guidelines because we reserve the right to confiscate the funds from any account of an individual found to be using such products, especially if they have already been intimated about the prohibitory nature of usage of such products in the past.

Also - don't give your password out to anyone.

Good luck at the tables!!

Thanks,
Party support