Best way to learn?

[DakotaKid]

Which would be better, playing online play money games (free) or Wilson's software ($100)? I know free money games are nothing like the real thing, but in terms of just getting used to playing against people with real situations rather than reading about them, getting good at calculating pot odds, implied odds, etc. it seems like I may be able to save my hundred bucks for awhile. Also, would I be better off paying a hundred bucks for software or buying in for a hundred at $.50-$1.00? Thanks alot for any advice.

[Clarkmeister]

I'd do a combination of the following:

1. Read
2. Do some play money tables
3. Read
4. Do some play money tables
5. Read
6. Do some .50-1 tables
7. Post some hands from the .50-1 session where you weren't sure of what to do.
8. Read
9. Do some more .50-1 games.
Repeat 7, 8 and 9 until you start beating the games.

A few things to save you some time:

Don't experiment with offsuit Aces lower than AT. You'll save yourself a lot of expensive lessons.

Play tighter than Jones and Krieger suggest. The downside of playing too tight is much less bad than the downside of playing too loose.

You might want to do a search in small stakes forum. I think I have a post in there of "rules I gave my girlfriend" for playing as she was learning. Probabaly pretty helpful for a beginner.

[DakotaKid]

Thanks for the advice Clarkmeister.

I looked up your "rules..." Very helpful, I think tighter is definitely better for me as I learn. But I am wondering, what limits would you say they apply to? I played a number of hours at paradise play money, and for the most part found that my tightness didn't scare away any action when I did hit. Will this hold true for low limits, particularly online, where (as many posters claim) players are slightly tougher than their B&M counterparts?

[Clarkmeister]

"I played a number of hours at paradise play money, and for the most part found that my tightness didn't scare away any action when I did hit. Will this hold true for low limits, particularly online, where (as many posters claim) players are slightly tougher than their B&M counterparts? "

Play money tables are sorta unrealistic. What they do accomplish is to get you used to the flow of the game. You'll see far fewer people seeing the flop in real money games, and certainly way fewer preflop raises and caps.

But the good news is that at the bottom limits of online or BM poker they still won't respect you much when you show up. This is why the ultra tight strategy is great for a novice. You can play super tight, and still get paid off.

What this also does is allow you to play about break-even poker, but under real conditions. Now you are gaining critical postflop experience, which is where the money is made. As your postflop experience grows, and you get a feel for profitable situations, you can start to add in a few hands.

[thebroker]

Instead of the play money games try the 2 cent- 4 cent hold em games at pokerstars.com. I haven't played in them but they have to be more real than the play games. When you can achieve a win in these games over a period of time move to the .50-1.00 at paradise. There is also a .05-.10 at Planetpoker.com you could start out in, but the .02-.04 at pokerstars is active more hours per day.

[s_teiger]

I think micro stakes are a huge waste of time. You'll be playing really slowly and making no money at it that you'll become easily frustrated and won't improve. That's why they're there in the first place, to frustrate you so you'll try bigger stakes which you'll only lose at. I suggest you buy TTH, you can buy it cheap on ebay. It is one of the best investments you can make as a poker player. Play goes so fast and the advisor helps alot so you're speed learning. Skip the 4/8 cent and after about 1000 hands (about 3 hours) you can jump into .50/1 and continue to move up. It saves you a lot of time and frustration more importantly. But also read some books. I suggest Jone's Winning Low Limit Hold'em. Very helpful book.

[Louie Landale]

I haven't played Wilson for many years, but presume its better than it was.

Poker software is pretty good at getting your feet wet, learning the rules, the mechanics, and basic realities of the game (such as how bad a stiff J is when there are 4 of your suit on board). You get to do this fast, safe, and free in the comfort of your home. I highly recommend this for raw beginners.

Poker software is a disaster for learning real strategy. The computer does NOT play very well, especially when it comes to adjusting your strategy based on what's already happened. Once you are confident that you will beat the "good" lineup, then I STRONGLY advise that you STOP playing as you will learn BAD strategy and tactics, and will learn incorrect things vis-a-vis hand-reading. At that point, start playing free or cheap online games. Use the software for "research" (setting up situations and letting the computer play itself 1mil times), but no longer for "playing".

The other "learning" tool I like it this: after each session, be SURE to recall and replay at least 2 key hands, figuring out what happened (exactly) and what you should have done.

- Louie

[orbie]

DakotaKid-

I followed this post and was intrested in reading "rules I gave my girlfriend" , but had no luck on my search. can you help me with how you located it?
Thank you Orbster

[Jimbo]

I will post Clarkmeisters' rules he gave his girlfriend post below for you:

"OK, you have done step 1, which is have those talks about the game in general.

Step 2: If you have TTH have her play a little bit of that. If not, have her play on some Paradise or other site's play tables, simply so she can get an idea of how the blinds and button work.

Step 2a: I made my GF start reading right away. First I had her read Part I in Gary Carson's book. It is by far the best introductory section of any holdem book out there. Then after she read the primer in Part I of Carson, I had her stop and go read Lee Jones new version of WLLH. She then went back and finished Carson's book.

Step 3: Take her to as low a limit game as your area has. Also strongly consider getting a real account at paradise and have her play some .50/1 poker. Do this all while she is reading. It will make her reading more relevant and useful. Reading is useless without some frame of reference and real table experience.

Step 4: The books all try and explain that "it depends". Give her some "it doesn't depend" rules to help her get started. Examples:

Always bet top pair or an overpair on the flop.
Always raise JJ-AA and AK preflop.
Never cold call a raise with less than AA-JJ and AK.

This will help give a foundation so that she doesn't always feel like she is in a "it depends" situation. She can then start to deviate as she gains more experience.

Hope this helps.

[DakotaKid]

Orb, in addition to Jimbo's post, I found this helpful from "What I tell my girlfriend":

Preflop:

I will Always raise with AK-AQ, AA-JJ.

I will Never cold call a raise without AK, AA-JJ.

I will always raise and reraise with AA and KK.

I will never play the following hands-
1. Offsuit aces worse than AJ.
2. Suited connectors worse than 67s.
3. Offsuit cards worse than 9T.
4. Offsuit 2 gappers other than AJ
5. Suited one gappers worse than 97s

If everyone folds to me in Late position, I will raise or fold.

Flop:

If I raised preflop, I will always bet the flop if checked to.

If I have top pair or an overpair, I will always raise the flop if someone bets before me.

I will not call on the flop with less than top pair, a 4 flush, or an open ended straight draw.

If I am checked to and am last or second to last,
I will bet with any pair or any flush or straight draw.

Turn:

If I bet the flop and wasn't raised, I bet the turn.

If I am checkraised I will fold unless I have an overpair, 2 pair or better, or an open ended or flush draw.

If I improve on the turn, I will bet if no one bet the flop.

River:

If everyone checks to me, If I have top pair or better, I will bet.

If a flush gets there and I am first to act with top pair, I will check and call.

[orbie]

WOW Thanks for all the help. Extremly helpful information from everyone. I've got such an ich , I'm considering playing at the local .50- 2.00 game.
I fell confident about knowing my starting hands , but figure I'll still be paying for lessons. Am I rushing it or is it a good oppurtunity for me to apply what I've learned in real play?

Thanks agian Matt

[Easy E]

Odds are, you'll be paying for lessons initially no matter WHEN you start.... but studying beforehand will help lower that cost.

[Easy E]

"I suggest you buy TTH, you can buy it cheap on ebay. It is one of the best investments you can make as a poker player."

While I can agree with the second half of the sentence, with limits, the first half is only good if the buyer either a) won't upgrade down the road, unless b) someone on ebay will sell them an upgrade, risking getting cut off down the road...