letting aces go on the flop

[foldem]

Playing 6 max NL400 on party. I have 400, CO has 800, SB has 500.
CO is fishy and sees nearly every flop.
CO posts a $6 (2 dead blind).
I am dealt A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifA /images/graemlins/spade.gif UTG and make it 20 to go. CO calls 16, SB calls 18 all else fold.

Flop comes (63):
J /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif

SB leads for 30. What's my move here? I made it 75 to go. This seems like it might be to little of a raise in hindsight. CO cold calls, SB makes it 200 straight, I muck, CO mucks. Comments?

(Edited to add stack sizes)

[9cao]

stacks?

[nopepper]

that is increadibly weak...i push here maybe 99% of the time

[Kirkrrr]

You didn't mention anything about SB and what kind of a player he is, but against a normal, thinking opponent I probably like the fold, though I'm not too sure I'd be able to make it myself.

If I'm totally wrong too I'd love for someone to explain why.

Kirk R.

[foldem]

What hand or range of hands do you put the small blind on that I am beating? I am hard pressed to think the nut flush draw would reraise only another 125 instead of pushing.

[amoeba]

I assume you get stacked here 75% of the time.

[amoeba]

I like making it 100 and seeing the action.

[nopepper]

without a read i am unable to make this fold...i can see(and I have made) bets like this holds a nut flush draw...top with with back door draws, how does opponet see you?

[foldem]

SB should see me as tight agressive. I have been playing hardly any pots out of position and raising in position. I haven't been getting out of line after the flop and havent shown down any garbage hands.

[warlockjd]

Well played

[ QUOTE ]
without a read i am unable to make this fold...i can see(and I have made) bets like this holds a nut flush draw...top with with back door draws, how does opponet see you?


[/ QUOTE ]

Your default should be folding unless a read to the contrary

[nopepper]

i would think oppoent here is trying to blow you off your hand..i dont see him playing a set this fast..it really looks like a draw to me.

[excession]

Flop is 2-suited - the pot has a decent amont of $$ in it - $165 or so - why wouldn't an ABC player with two opponents (including a fish) still in hand and who wanted to make flush draws pay bet $200 with a set here?

If you had a set in his position (let's say of sixes) what would you bet instead?

[nopepper]

i perosnally would push...i dont see a point to betting $200, it seems like a bet he wants to try and get away from. he only started with $500 if i remeber correctly. the pot has $165..with a $200 bet, if hero calls also theres $565 in the pot giving the fish (who we assume is on a draw) alomst 3-1 on the call. lets assume fish could be holding a hand like qjh, he is a 60/40 dog here..im calling getting 3-1. even if hero folds hes getting almost 2-1..im still calling.

[durrrr]

call flop, evaluate on turn- if his range here is set 65% flushdraw/str.draw 25%, bluff 10% u should push his flop reraise, but you are barely +EV (on the hand overall). Also this saves you $$ when CO has a hand. As you played it I guess i fold, but its very very close and very very ugly (you are getting almost 2-1).

-durrr

[foldem]

I do not think that calling is an option. If I call I will have only 175 left and the pot will be almost 600 so I will be comitted. As it stood I was getting about 2:1 on a push which I don't think is enough.

The SB is three-betting two players one of which has already raised twice. It should be fairly obvious that I have a big hand now and the fact that he doesnt push makes me think he is reraising for value and not to blow me off my hand.

Edit: also note that a hand like QJh is not possible since the jack on board is a heart.

[aggie]

[ QUOTE ]
I do not think that calling is an option. If I call I will have only 175 left and the pot will be almost 600 so I will be comitted. As it stood I was getting about 2:1 on a push which I don't think is enough.

The SB is three-betting two players one of which has already raised twice. It should be fairly obvious that I have a big hand now and the fact that he doesnt push makes me think he is reraising for value and not to blow me off my hand.

Edit: also note that a hand like QJh is not possible since the jack on board is a heart.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you pretty much nailed it on your own. this is an allin or fold situation. You also nailed that you screwed this hand by somewhat underraising the flop. This is the exact type of raise that will induce a reraise from a hand like AJ. All in all though I think the fold is correct against a complete unknown but very quickly becomes a call against a player with aggressive tendencies.

[nopepper]

i stand corrected i thought the kh was on the flop not the jh..

[Leptyne]

One of the standard plays in NLHE is "check to the raiser". Better players understand that the proper play is to lead with a strong hand. This looks like pretty good play to me. SB leads, you raise to find out where you're at, and SB re-raises over the top. Sure, could be a flush draw, could be 7-2os, but probably exactly what it represents. This is exactly why you're more likely to win a small pot and lose a big one with AA.

I like your reasoning that if you call you're pot committed. If you can call you can raise.

As one poster said the fold should be your default play. Strong fold.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
This is exactly why you're more likely to win a small pot and lose a big one with AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

I win big pots with AA and lose small ones, I guess I'm just that good.

seriously though, the 1st line is so misquoted and dumb. and yes, AA is my biggest winner in PT.

[savman]

[ QUOTE ]
call flop, evaluate on turn- if his range here is set 65% flushdraw/str.draw 25%, bluff 10% u should push his flop reraise, but you are barely +EV (on the hand overall). Also this saves you $$ when CO has a hand. As you played it I guess i fold, but its very very close and very very ugly (you are getting almost 2-1).

-durrr

[/ QUOTE ]

calling for over half of you stack is not an option.

against any reasonable opponent u are crushed. if he is a super donk or a maniac i push. FWIW, the hand plays easier imo if you make a pot raise on the flop.

[warlockjd]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is exactly why you're more likely to win a small pot and lose a big one with AA.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I win big pots with AA and lose small ones, I guess I'm just that good.

seriously though, the 1st line is so misquoted and dumb. and yes, AA is my biggest winner in PT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great. The constructive point being !?!?!?!?!?!?

[Niwa]

Seems pretty standard to me. I would need a read to call here.

Against an unknown I would fold.

[spoohunter]

The read on SB is important here. Basically, unless he backs a jack with his stack you have to fold. If you pay attention you can usually tell the "Top Pair is good enough for me" type of idiots within half an hour or so of play.

Small bet, get raised, three bet is almost always a monster.
Thank your opponent for not leading full pot, think what an akward spot that puts you in. He leads for $60, are you going to raise to $200? And then fold for $180 more? Thank him for letting you off so easy.

I think you MUST raise more on the flop, UNLESS you plan on getting all the money in. I make it $120 all day, folding to the push.