holy crap, I think I just played on the 3rd level

[donger]

.. And it happened at 5/10! :O

CO has TAGish stats (23/12/2.5.. 35 WTSD)

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, MP checks, CO checks.

Turn: (2 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP folds, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, CO calls.

River: (8 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

[Jerkass333]

I must be very far from this type of thinking because I have no idea what you're doing in this hand. I see how his turn raise is suspicious after not betting the flop, but it could be something like 55 that he wanted action on. And when he calls your 3-bet I really think he has something, even a better A-high who called the turn just to try to maybe improve on the river. I cant see you winning this hand often. Its a small enough pot on the turn to let it go.

[Alobar]

If you are going to do this, I like a river bet more than I do a river call. I think you lose more by not betting in a 8BB pot and giving him the oportunity to fold an ace, or some pair+flushdraw.

[donger]

[ QUOTE ]
I must be very far from this type of thinking because I have no idea what you're doing in this hand. I see how his turn raise is suspicious after not betting the flop, but it could be something like 55 that he wanted action on. And when he calls your 3-bet I really think he has something, even a better A-high who called the turn just to try to maybe improve on the river. I cant see you winning this hand often. Its a small enough pot on the turn to let it go.

[/ QUOTE ]

With this guy's style of play, we can pretty much elminate a queen from his hand range after he checks last to act on the flop. This means either a weak-ish hand like a J or some kind of flush draw.

By raising my turn lead, he's calling bullshit on my having a Q. Betting from a blind when the top card on the board pairs is a pretty common bluff against perceptive players. You're the only one who could have legitimately checked top pair on the flop, having failed a CR.

Sometimes, you have to three-bet with little or no hand in these situations to keep people from picking you off every time you lead out like this.

He's going to have a busted flush draw a good percentage of the time, and it's usually not going to contain a better A, since any good suited A he would have raised preflop. Therefore, I'm probably good a decent enough % of the time to look him up on the river.

This is really just a brag post on my part, because I'm proud of my developing hand reading, but I welcome criticism from better players (read: most everybody )

[marand]

With "played on the 3rd level"... do you mean "I just 3-bet the turn with the worst hand and then called on the river"?

I think you are spewing, but it probably worked out for you in this hand since you posted it.

[donger]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to do this, I like a river bet more than I do a river call. I think you lose more by not betting in a 8BB pot and giving him the oportunity to fold an ace, or some pair+flushdraw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here, don't you think I'm more ahead when I call a bet than when I bet and get called? I think there's a lot of worse hand's he's going to bluff with than better hands he's going to fold. If we're operating under the assumption that he called bullshit on the turn by raising me, then he's not folding the river for one bet with any kind of showdown value, right?

[Scotch78]

I'm guessing KT or T9s, more likely the latter.

Scott

[donger]

[ QUOTE ]
With "played on the 3rd level"... do you mean "I just 3-bet the turn with the worst hand and then called on the river"?
I think you are spewing, but it probably worked out for you in this hand since you posted it.

[/ QUOTE ]


If you hate this play, at least tell me your range of hands for CO and your reasoning behind it.

[ddubois]

[ QUOTE ]
He's going to have a busted flush draw a good percentage of the time, and it's usually not going to contain a better A, since any good suited A he would have raised preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
In your hand reading mastery, you should include reading your own hand. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[donger]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He's going to have a busted flush draw a good percentage of the time, and it's usually not going to contain a better A, since any good suited A he would have raised preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
In your hand reading mastery, you should include reading your own hand. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Please elaborate, I don't understand.

[ddubois]

You have the ace of spades, so his flush draw can't possibly contain it.

But I just noticed the club flush draw arrived on the turn, so I should have kept quiet.

[WarmonkEd]

I would guess Jx, 5x or some middle pocket pair. I agree he would've bet the flop if he had a queen. It looks like with his turn raise he is trying to punish a bluff and protect his hand. I don't think your hand is good more than 1/9th of the time. And I think a river bet would've been better.

edit: ok, I understand your thinking that he might bluff a flush draw. I would argue the pot is too big and a bet out is better in case he has Jxs or 5xs that hit a flush draw.

[Mig]

I wish I was such a good hand reader ...

[donger]

[ QUOTE ]
I wish I was such a good hand reader ...

[/ QUOTE ]

I smell sarcasm.

[kurosh]

If you're doing that, you have to bet the river.

[donger]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to do this, I like a river bet more than I do a river call. I think you lose more by not betting in a 8BB pot and giving him the oportunity to fold an ace, or some pair+flushdraw.

[/ QUOTE ]

The more I think about this, the more I think you're right. It's probably better just to bet/fold the river and keep on the gas. I can easily fold if he raises and he might even fold a Jack here.

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
He's going to have a busted flush draw a good percentage of the time, and it's usually not going to contain a better A, since any good suited A he would have raised preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

My problem with this is I don't think many good TAGs are going to bluff a busted draw against a turn 3-better. Maybe if you had C/R the turn and he called and then you check the river -- he can put you on a semi-bluff; but it seems to me he would be considerably less likely to do so on a turn lead and 3-bet.

[tolbiny]

I doubt he folds a jack- but there are some hands with a 5 or a 6 in them that he might fold.

[marand]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With "played on the 3rd level"... do you mean "I just 3-bet the turn with the worst hand and then called on the river"?
I think you are spewing, but it probably worked out for you in this hand since you posted it.

[/ QUOTE ]


If you hate this play, at least tell me your range of hands for CO and your reasoning behind it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, my first thought was that I really hate the play. The pot is very small and you are putting in 3 bets on the turn with a weak hand.

Putting him on a hand range is not easy since his play looks strange.

He should bet any Q or J on the flop, he should also bet a flush draw or straight draw like T9 or KT. He should also probably bet a monster hand like a set of 5's since he don't want to give a free card to gutshot or something.

If villian has two clubs, he could possibly raise you on the turn here. But you could very well have a queen and missed a check/raise so I don't like his turn raise at all with a draw here. He should know that a turn raise here looks suspicious and the pot is small so it is a -EV play.

If he has a flushdraw then you probably have the best hand. If he had A8s or better he would probably have raised preflop to isolate the limper. So check/calling the river is the only way to gain a last bet from him. But since you 3-bet the turn he really should understand that you are not going to fold on this blank river.

So I don't really think his play makes sense with any hand. But if I have to put him on a hand it would have to be a badly slowplayed set of 5's or flushdraw which is weaker than your hand.

I would never play the hand the way you did, but perhaps it's not bad at all. At first I thought it was really really horrible, but now I am not sure anymore. The only thing I know is I don't like villians line no matter what he has.

[Mig]

no not at all /images/graemlins/smile.gif. I just don't see with what he would raise the turn here. Unless he is a complete donk he isn't getting go odds on his turn raise if he is on a draw... Basically I would put him on at least A high to raise you like that... So I don't get the 3 bet here...

[luckyharr]

[ QUOTE ]
With this guy's style of play, we can pretty much elminate a queen from his hand range after he checks last to act on the flop. This means either a weak-ish hand like a J or some kind of flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your hand reading is great here but I don't understand the three bet. Since he's calling the three bet with either of these holdings, your fold equity is zero. You are a slighly bigger dog to a Jack than you are a favorite over a flush draw. If you think each is equally likely, then there is no value in the 3-bet unless he'll fold that weak Jack either here or to a river bet. It feels weird, but I will call down after the turn raise and check-call a non-club river (feels like this player would have bet any other stong draws on the flop.)

[GetThere1Time]

[ QUOTE ]
no not at all /images/graemlins/smile.gif. I just don't see with what he would raise the turn here. Unless he is a complete donk he isn't getting go odds on his turn raise if he is on a draw... Basically I would put him on at least A high to raise you like that... So I don't get the 3 bet here...

[/ QUOTE ]

Villian is a TAG and checked the flop in position so its pretty safe to assume he doesn't have a Q or J. When donger leads the turn when queens pair it looks like he's betting air and the TAG is probably raising with a pretty wide range of hands. So donger is essentially rebluffing with what looks to the TAG like a whiffed flop c/r. Or atleast that's the way I understand things.

[Mig]

Well the board is still raggy but even tags can get tricky. Like slowplaying a set or 2 pairs... I just don't see how he could call the 3 bet with pure air... A tag would have folded to the 3 bet here I think

[GetThere1Time]

[ QUOTE ]
Well the board is still raggy but even tags can get tricky. Like slowplaying a set or 2 pairs... I just don't see how he could call the 3 bet with pure air... A tag would have folded to the 3 bet here I think

[/ QUOTE ]

A slowplayed flopped set or two pair just filled up and is capping the turn. That's why I think the most likely hand for the villian is a flush draw after he calls the turn 3-bet.

[Mig]

Well yeah it makes a lot of sense...

[donger]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With this guy's style of play, we can pretty much elminate a queen from his hand range after he checks last to act on the flop. This means either a weak-ish hand like a J or some kind of flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your hand reading is great here but I don't understand the three bet. Since he's calling the three bet with either of these holdings, your fold equity is zero. You are a slighly bigger dog to a Jack than you are a favorite over a flush draw. If you think each is equally likely, then there is no value in the 3-bet unless he'll fold that weak Jack either here or to a river bet. It feels weird, but I will call down after the turn raise and check-call a non-club river (feels like this player would have bet any other stong draws on the flop.)

[/ QUOTE ]

He could be making this move with a smallish pocket pair, bottom pair, nothing at all, or a flush draw. I want him to fold everything that beats me, plus all of his nothing-at-all hands since with those, he still has 6 outs to pair up and make the best hand, and 18 bluff outs (spades and clubs) that will make it harder for me to call a river bet.


When he flat calls the three-bet on the turn, it screams flush draw, so I figured I was good against most busted flush draws, so I checked. He interpreted my river check when a blank fell off to mean that I had been bluffing (since it's weird to three-bet trips on the turn, then check a blank river), and didn't actually have a queen. I figured I beat most of his preflop-limping flush draws, so I called.

[Buck_65]

¡Apueste el río!

[helpmeout]

I dont like the turn 3bet.

If he is semibluffing then dont cost yourself another bet he likely has 6 outs for a pair and 9 for the flush. He might even have more if he has a hand like 98s which IMO is most likely (obviously an OSED would bet the flop).

Call the turn raise and the river bet and hope he wasnt slowplaying a monster or hit a pair of 6s lol.